The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[Gather round]

If the north of Ireland is the exception to the trend, why did you feel the need to bring those territories into it?

I was correcting Danny's odd claim that "By and large, European territorial disputes have been resolved". And, as I explained, NI is dfferent to those places.

Now I ask you, why were ther no alterations to the border? Have you got some knowledge of some other Border Commission plan?

I've answered you already. The Free State and later Republic chose not to revive a Border Commission because throughout they've been content not merely with a partition, but with the line drawn in the 1920s. Ostensibly, because they don't want to abandon Nationalists in a rump NI; in reality, because Governments and wider public opinion have been content with the situation. Put simply, their priority for decades has been not a united Ireland, but arguing a better deal for Nationalists within NI.

Your constant sniping in and around various aspects of nationalism loses you any empathy towards what you may have initally stated. Your "Eddie Coll" statement par example

Diddums, you big baby.Generally, I certainly criticise some aspects of Nationalism, as reasonably as I can offering evidence where appropriate; specifically, Dev was ridiculed as Eddie Coll throughout Ireland and during his lifetime, as it became clear that his claimed family background was baloney.

Irish Nationalists will never achieve their aims until there's a political structure in place for it to be achieved. As it stands the political structure in place is what we have and in order for it to take place it needs to be shown that there is a likelyhood of a border poll succeedin

There are 'political structures' in place, ie regular elections to Stormont, Westminster and the rest. In poll after poll for decades they consistently fail to support a united Ireland.

The only thing that Nationalists can do right now is show how a United Ireland is in the best interests of every Irish person regardless of his or her political beliefs in the hope that if a poll was to take place it would succeed

Aye, they could start doing that. Do you accept that they haven't to date?

Again I think you are misreading what I am saying and are being deliberately awkward

You made a vague, generalised claim, were reasonably asked to detail and justify it, and couldn't/ wouldn't. Any awkwardness is your own.

In order for this debate to occur we have to start it somewhere. GA has done this

Just repeating 'let's have a border poll' (which he's been doing for decades) isn't starting anything.

Embarrasment from a hypothetical referendum that may or may not need to happen?

Embarrassment if they call the poll and it shows large-scale apathy/ hostility to a united Ireland. While FG, FF, Labour and co don't actually want a UI, equally they don't want to have to explain why not. Obvious solution: no poll.

The aspiration of a united Ireland is a strong fact of life amongst the majority of people on this island

It's a daydream. Politicians have always opposed it in private, knowing the implications; the wider electorate would in public once the immediate costs are clear to them.

A united Ireland (which means taking over places like East Belfast and North Down with their less than 5% Nationalist electorates) is no more likely than you becoming the 17th Land of Germany.

The talk of safety-nets shows the height of ambition...

Actually it shows what it says it does, a basic standard which for most of the last century has meant NI has been more affluent than the South.

If you choose to be literal, I can't help it

If you choose to post rambling, borderline-racist theories (admittedly while clearly drunk, I realise not typical of you), you can hardly be surprised if they attract comment.

[DannyInvincible]

I wonder what Theresa Villiers makes of the wording of paragraph 2 of schedule 1 of the GFA:

2. Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.

I acknowledge that that is what was signed up to, but I think it's unfortunate that the power to decide whether or not a referendum should occur on the issue is vested in someone who could only be described as an outsider, especially if the DUP do decide to come out in support of having one.

[gastric]

I was correcting Danny's odd claim that "By and large, European territorial disputes have been resolved". And, as I explained, NI is dfferent to those places.



I've answered you already. The Free State and later Republic chose not to revive a Border Commission because throughout they've been content not merely with a partition, but with the line drawn in the 1920s. Ostensibly, because they don't want to abandon Nationalists in a rump NI; in reality, because Governments and wider public opinion have been content with the situation. Put simply, their priority for decades has been not a united Ireland, but arguing a better deal for Nationalists within NI.



Diddums, you big baby.Generally, I certainly criticise some aspects of Nationalism, as reasonably as I can offering evidence where appropriate; specifically, Dev was ridiculed as Eddie Coll throughout Ireland and during his lifetime, as it became clear that his claimed family background was baloney.



There are 'political structures' in place, ie regular elections to Stormont, Westminster and the rest. In poll after poll for decades they consistently fail to support a united Ireland.



Aye, they could start doing that. Do you accept that they haven't to date?



You made a vague, generalised claim, were reasonably asked to detail and justify it, and couldn't/ wouldn't. Any awkwardness is your own.



Just repeating 'let's have a border poll' (which he's been doing for decades) isn't starting anything.



Embarrassment if they call the poll and it shows large-scale apathy/ hostility to a united Ireland. While FG, FF, Labour and co don't actually want a UI, equally they don't want to have to explain why not. Obvious solution: no poll.



It's a daydream. Politicians have always opposed it in private, knowing the implications; the wider electorate would in public once the immediate costs are clear to them.

A united Ireland (which means taking over places like East Belfast and North Down with their less than 5% Nationalist electorates) is no more likely than you becoming the 17th Land of Germany.



Actually it shows what it says it does, a basic standard which for most of the last century has meant NI has been more affluent than the South.



If you choose to post rambling, borderline-racist theories (admittedly while clearly drunk, I realise not typical of you), you can hardly be surprised if they attract comment.

Are you Ealing Green in disguise? Your analysis and editing of comments indicate a similar attitude.

[DannyInvincible]

GR is a breath of fresh air compared to that other snake.

[BonnieShels]

But it makes sense for the DUP. They can show that they are in support of it and that they have no truck with it happening. Knowing they won't have to deal with it for another decade at least.
That it's on the doorstep of the Secretary of State was an obvious sop to Nationalists to have it included as an option. It means it saves face for Dublin, London, Nationalists and Unionists.

[BonnieShels]

Are you Ealing Green in disguise? Your analysis and editing of comments indicate a similar attitude.

Similar on the face of it. And he wrecks my head at the best of times with the selective editing.

But never compare the two. GR and NB make or break political discussion on here.

[DannyInvincible]

Facebook were given a legal order to remove two of the pages used by the Loyalist protesters after several threats were made against a named individual. Said nutjobs are up in arms claiming the decision infringes on their freedom of speech etc. etc. and so they've got the EU involved

Just because they live in a religion-obsessed bubble, it's peculiar how some bigots north of the order appear to assume that everyone in Ireland shares the same infatuation. Ridiculous paranoia. Was it even proven that the comments were removed by Facebook employees based in Dublin? Of course, the removal of the offending comments was a legal order from a Belfast court and not a decision taken by Facebook employees anyway!

[Gather round]

I wonder what Theresa Villiers makes of the wording of paragraph 2 of schedule 1 of the GFA

Heh. Even the latter day Magna Carta has sexist typo errors?

I acknowledge that that is what was signed up to, but I think it's unfortunate that the power to decide whether or not a referendum should occur on the issue is vested in someone who could only be described as an outsider, especially if the DUP do decide to come out in support of having one

Relax. If the two biggest insider parties support it, Villiers will probably play ball. Always assuming she stays in the job long enough. She's only there after a) losing the files on railway policy while deputy transport minister, and because b) Cameron didn't want to sack a woman from the Government completely.

Are you Ealing Green in disguise?

You must have been away Down Under a long time, to confuse a Belfast, left-wing, Crusader with Fermanagh's Glenman Tory?

Your analysis and editing of comments indicate a similar attitude

Well fcuk my old boots, Unionist agrees with other Unionist about Unionism! Has dog bitten man yet?

I haven't 'edited' anyone's comments, clearly distinguishing between quoting them verbatim and posting a summary, where appropriate. If you think I've misrepresented, say where, rather than making pointless digs at ex-posters.

GR is a breath of fresh air compared to that other snake

Thanks Cleopatra, but beware. My bite might still be venomous...

[Wolfman]

Left wing and unionist? Hardly likely. More meaningless twaddle.

[geysir]

Unionism is a very broad church, ranging from cretins to creationists, to your ordinary decent gardener.

[BonnieShels]

Facebook were given a legal order to remove two of the pages used by the Loyalist protesters after several threats were made against a named individual. Said nutjobs are up in arms claiming the decision infringes on their freedom of speech etc. etc. and so they've got the EU involved

The embed was blocked up until just now for some reason on my computer.

That's priceless.

For his next trick John McNeish sues the Catholic church for having a Catholic bias.

[Not Brazil]

Left wing and unionist? Hardly likely. More meaningless twaddle.

Can you expand on your analysis that this is "hardly likely", Wolfman?

[Gather round]

I think Wolfman (aka Ardee-Bhoy-in-disguise) is suggesting Ulster unionists don't vote/ support Labour or further left parties. Because they tend to be Conservative or further right where Unionist candidates aren't available. Which is broadly true.

I'm sure he isn't suggesting I'm inventing either the left-wing or the Unionist bit.

[DannyInvincible]

The PUP profess to be left-wing.

[Gather round]

The PUP profess to be left-wing

True. Although they're hamstrung by both limited electoral support and links with the paramilitary UVF.

[Wolfman]

It would help if Gather Round got their facts right.

Met met many unionists over the years and some of them are even nice people. But none have ever said anything left wing or suggested so. So yes, left wing unionists seem pretty thin on the ground. If at all. And GR is not one based on posts on here.

As for the PUP, read their literature once, which if it wasn't for the unionist bit made more sense than most of their fellow Brits. Though not sure if left wing even by Irish standards.

[Not Brazil]

Met met many unionists over the years and some of them are even nice people. But none have ever said anything left wing or suggested so. So yes, left wing unionists seem pretty thin on the ground. If at all.

"Left wing" is a broad spectrum - from centre left, to extreme left.

An old teacher of mine led the old Northern Ireland Labour Party - he was a Unionist.

I think there are more centre left Unionists than you would think.

Fred Cobain (recently defected from UUP to DUP) would be known for his socialist outlook.

[Gather round]

"Left wing" is a broad spectrum - from centre left, to extreme left

Others include:

Sylvia Hermon (stood as independent Unionist in 2010 in protest at the UUP- Tory deal, increasing her vote from 50% to 63%)

Kate Hoey (was Labour sports minister)

John Cole (longtime senior journalist at BBC, Guardian & Observer).

[SolitudeRed]

Sylvia Hermon a Leftie?? isn't she the posh sounding one from Bangor which is supposedly upmarket? also her husband was RUC chief constable back in the 80's sounds always thought she was more of a big house unionist type tbh.


NI is a joke of a place like the 'fleg' carry on has really brought that home to me too many politically Illiterate spide (chav) morons running about the place its embarrassing and I don't think this place can ever get away from the sectarian/political divide especially since most people with a bit of sense and education leave NI its just a bit of a headf**k trying to deal with stuff like this and the fact that the job market is so poor doesn't exactly help either.

[DannyInvincible]

'"Villiers has 'no plans to call a border poll'": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21161733

Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers has said she has no plans to call a border poll.

She was speaking in the House of Commons after she was questioned about Sinn Féin's call for a referendum on the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

Under the Good Friday Agreement, she has the power to call such a poll.

On Wednesday, responding to a question from SDLP MP Margaret Ritchie, she said she had no intention of doing so.

The conditions were not present, she said.

East Antrim DUP MP Sammy Wilson called Sinn Fein's campaign for a poll a "cynical exercise". He urged the government to campaign for the Union if a poll took place.

The recent flag protests and rioting in Northern Ireland dominated many of the questions to the secretary of state at Wednesday's NI question time at Westminster.

Shadow Secretary Labour MP Vernon Coaker called on the government to outline "concrete proposals " to deal with the issue of identity in Northern Ireland and to detail how it intended to deal with sectarianism and deprivation.

SDLP leader Alasdair McDonnell urged the government to organise a round-table conference to deal with recent trouble in Northern Ireland. He said the British and Irish governments and the local parties should be involved.