The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[SkStu]

That a very balanced suggestion. Very smart.

[Gather round]

That a very balanced suggestion. Very smart

To be "very balanced", I think we might reasonably expect it not to make explicit that any/ all British symbols are offensive and have been to [implicitly all] Nationalists for centuries. I mean, that's just MOPERY.

Try turning on its head. Do you think all Unionists in NI find all Nationalist symbols similarly offensive? I don't, as it would be unreasonable and even absurd to think that (even though the Provies intimidated me from my school and much of my family from their homes much more recently than Sinn Fein's folk memory seems to stretch).

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah but unionists in NI have never lived under Irish rule (unless they migrated south).

On a side note, I have to admit that before this thread I never knew the Irish word for fleg.

[Gather round]

Yeah but unionists in NI have never lived under Irish rule (unless they migrated south)

Er, I have, as a student in Dublin. Many other Unionists from NI have worked there, as you might expect; after all, the South is a neighboring country which is similar in many respects to NI or the rest of Britain, and generally very welcoming to outsiders. But even as a joke or wind-up, I'd very rarely think of my time there as living under Irish Republic rule. Ditto when I lived in Germany. This was 30 years ago, long enough distant for the older regulars in my local to start gurning about WW2 after they'd tired of racist diatribes against Turks and Yugoslavs. But I didn't get too wound up: the thousand-bomber raids were decades before I was born.

Thing is, Sinn Fein have been smart, as Stu puts it above, in convincing a mass support to accept their single-issue obsessive anti-Britishness. But such obsession has its disadvantages- most obviously it makes any long-term mutually satisfactory compromise with their Unionist neighbors almost impossible.

[SkStu]

To be "very balanced", I think we might reasonably expect it not to make explicit that any/ all British symbols are offensive and have been to [implicitly all] Nationalists for centuries. I mean, that's just MOPERY.

Try turning on its head. Do you think all Unionists in NI find all Nationalist symbols similarly offensive? I don't, as it would be unreasonable and even absurd to think that (even though the Provies intimidated me from my school and much of my family from their homes much more recently than Sinn Fein's folk memory seems to stretch).

Don't get me wrong. I think anyone who gets upset by a flag probably has a very unsatisfactory sex-life. But if you're liable to be upset by flags and the other group is liable to be upset by flags then it should be both flags or nothing if a compromise cannot be reached. As I said, its a smart move by the Shinners.

[Charlie Darwin]

Er, I have, as a student in Dublin. Many other Unionists from NI have worked there, as you might expect; after all, the South is a neighboring country which is similar in many respects to NI or the rest of Britain, and generally very welcoming to outsiders.

Yeah but Ireland hasn't ruled your home country, and you don't consider Ireland an occupying force. I can see why people might feel that way.

[DannyInvincible]

Yeah but unionists in NI have never lived under Irish rule (unless they migrated south).

What about the easily-forgotten Ulster Scots community of east Donegal? Many of them would identify as unionist/British, but their cultural/national identity doesn't receive the same official recognition that has been accorded to the nationalist community caught the other "wrong side of the border" in NI post-partition.

That a very balanced suggestion. Very smart.

I think it's definitely a more progressive/positive approach than negative in terms of communal equality/parity of esteem, although would Sinn Féin promote the vice versa: "where Irish cultural symbols are involved in public life, equivalent British cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence"?

Perhaps they would; maybe just a wee bit less vehemently...

There's also the obvious constitutional issue with flying the two national flags together raised by Nicholas Hanna. But then, NI does find itself in a rather unique constitutional position due to the prevailing socio-political circumstances.

Came across this earlier: http://www.independent.ie/national-n...n-3348495.html

Over half of those surveyed [in the Red C poll], 57pc, felt Belfast city council was wrong to restrict the flying of the Union flag at Belfast city hall.

Although I suspect that southern feeling on the matter might have be coloured in hindsight by the scenes of loyalist rioting. Would those polled really have felt it was a bad idea before the democratic vote was taken and had unrest not broken out? It should be remembered that nationalists ultimately compromised towards a unionist position; the Union flag still flies on designated days, after all. There'll be no sight of a tricolour flying with the Union flag on Belfast City Hall, never mind it flying alone.

On a side note, I have to admit that before this thread I never knew the Irish word for fleg.

Until this thread, I hadn't even known the Ulster Scots word for "problem"!

Some genuinely enjoyable reading, this: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

Northren Ireland (Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann) is ane o fower kintras o the Unitit Kinrick. It is in the north o the iland o Ireland, whaur it haes a laund mairch wi the Republic o Ireland, the ae pairt o the Unitit Kinrick wi an internaitional laund mairch. It wis foondit bi the Govrenment o Ireland Act, 1920.

It kivers 5,459 mi², aboot a saxt o the hail aurie o the iland, an haes 1,685,000 indwallers (Aprile 2001) — atwein a fowert an a thrid o the iland's hail population.

[peadar1987]

Ulster Scots: Not a language.

[Charlie Darwin]

What about the easily-forgotten Ulster Scots community of east Donegal? Many of them would identify as unionist/British, but their cultural/national identity doesn't receive the same official recognition that has been accorded to the nationalist community caught the other "wrong side of the border" in NI post-partition.

Maybe they feel the same way, although as far as I know they won't have the collective memory of violence orchestrated by the state that the people of Derry, for instance, would.

Until this thread, I hadn't even known the Ulster Scots word for "problem"!

Some genuinely enjoyable reading, this: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

Brilliant. Complete gibberish. I love it.

[gastric]

This article comments on how dispossessed many working class Loyalists feel and yet it is because of this feeling many didn't vote in the council elections. Added to the present economic woes, Unionist democratic politicians face a challenge to create an inclusive vision for the future.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/an...g-3348852.html

[Gather round]

.....

[Gather round]

But if you're liable to be upset by flags and the other group is liable to be upset by flags then it should be both flags or nothing if a compromise cannot be reached

Stu, you'll know the old gag about how travellers know when they've crossed from the Republic into NI; that's when the tricolors appear. SF supporters love flags- you need only walk a couple of blocks from Belfast City Hall to see them marking out territory.

Logically, there's a third alternative to the all or nothing you suggest- redraw the local government boundaries so that both sides can display whatever they like in their 'own' areas, with only token protests from a small minority opponent. I'm not being entirely serious, although it's worth stressing that West Belfast's unionist minority is barely 10%, with the Nationalist equivalent in the East less than 5% (source- 2010 general election).

Yeah but Ireland hasn't ruled your home country, and you don't consider Ireland an occupying force. I can see why people might feel that way

You seemed to be suggesting above that NI Unionists don't (can't?) understand Nationalist culture, unless we've lived in the South. Whereas I'm countering that basing so much of your culture/ politics on anti-Britishness is a major problem in itself. As I mentioned, I worked in Germany without getting hidebound by WW2; I'm also a lifelong British republican, but it's not something I want to vote for in a single issue election.

[SkStu]

[DannyInvincible]

Ulster Scots: Not a language.

Whilst it's been accorded language status in NI - for reasons of parity of esteem, I suspect - academic linguists tend to agree that it's as a dialect of either English or Scots. Scots itself is often described as a language, but referring to it as a dialect or as a language variety of English would probably be more appropriate. In saying that, there are no agreed strict or set parameters by which dialects and languages can to be distinguished, as far as I know.

I don't view Ulster Scots as a language myself, but that's not to say it's of no value whatsoever. It is what is; something a bit different, possibly even contrived in some instances or hopped upon by those pursuing political agendas, but I still think it has its charms. My uncle is a rural man who runs a farm near Raphoe - the Laggan district's heartland - and his accent is very much influenced by the dialect. He wouldn't identify as Ulster Scots himself, but it certainly means something in a cultural sense to a lot of people around the area who'd identify themselves as Ulster Scots, so in that sense, and rather than mock it like a cultural cynic, I think it can be seen as another interesting and enriching facet of the island of Ireland's culture.

[Charlie Darwin]

Language is very political. Serbian and Croatian are the same language, for instance, just with different alphabets. They're distinguished mainly on nationalist grounds.

[Spudulika]

Language is very political. Serbian and Croatian are the same language, for instance, just with different alphabets. They're distinguished mainly on nationalist grounds.

Not quite CD Serbian is quite distinct from Croatian, as in, you will tell a Serbian from the accent AND words they use. Of course most Croatians will understand the different words, but they have a sizeable differential. Slovenian and Macedonia (likewise) could be lumped in as Serbo-Croat as they have been in the past but are very different languages also. So it's more than just cyrillic/latin script. You're right though, language is the most common base of nationalistic emotions, that and stupidity.

A break/difference between the east-west Yugo(south)slav languages comes with influences from the west and east/south of Europe. Serbian is far, far closer to Russian, Bulgarian etc, whereas (I forget the exact amount) Croatian has a healthy percentage of latin based words (from Italian and French). A kicker in the region is Turkish/Turkic. Alot of words in Dalmatia have their route in Turkish and there are very distinct words used by Bosnjaks compared to their countryfolk of the christian persuasion. One of the tastiest and best loved dishes in ex-Yugoslavia - cevapi, is pure Turkish, but more importantly, pure heaven after a feast of drink.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not quite CD Serbian is quite distinct from Croatian, as in, you will tell a Serbian from the accent AND words they use. Of course most Croatians will understand the different words, but they have a sizeable differential.

That makes it a dialect.

[Gather round]

What about the easily-forgotten Ulster Scots community of east Donegal? Many of them would identify as unionist/British, but their cultural/national identity doesn't receive the same official recognition that has been accorded to the nationalist community caught the other "wrong side of the border" in NI post-partition

Alas the Donegal unionists (like those from Cavan and Monaghan I was at school with) were numerically insignificant- in that respect at least the border route was relatively successful. They had to grin, bear it and rely on FG to look after them

would Sinn Féin promote the vice versa: "where Irish cultural symbols are involved in public life, equivalent British cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence"?

Let's give it a try- say, by naming one of the kids' playgrounds in Newry after a Brit (para)military. Doesn't necessarily have to be a Shankill Butcher of couse, we can compromise on Churchill or Harry Windsor?

Although I suspect that southern feeling on the matter might have be coloured in hindsight by the scenes of loyalist rioting

Indeed, they're likely reminded of wee Willie Frazer's last stunt in Dublin, quickly followed by SF's local Neandertals rampaging through the city.

It should be remembered that nationalists ultimately compromised towards a unionist position; the Union flag still flies on designated days, after all

Strictly they compromised to an Alliance position which the Unionist parties refused to support

]Maybe they feel the same way, although as far as I know they won't have the collective memory of violence orchestrated by the state that the people of Derry, for instance, would

Maybe they'll have the collective memory of the violence orchestrated by balaclava-wearing paramilitary goons, who- let's not forget- committed about 90% of the murders during the Troubles.

This article comments on how dispossessed many working class Loyalists feel and yet it is because of this feeling many didn't vote in the council elections

A fair point, although turnout in local elections can be very low in working-class areas across Britain, not just NI. As an example, in 2011 it was 46% in the Macedon area of Newtownabbey which includes the Rathcoole estate scene of recent rioting. In many similar estates around Birmingham, less than half that number bother. So the wider problem is shortage of jobs, education etc. more than nationality symbols.

Macedon is named after a local lighthouse rather than marking Balkan migration into the area

As for Ullans, I've no detailed knowledge but instinctively it offers little more than a childish political stunt. There aren't enough distinct words to make it a dialect, and I can remember as a child older relatives from is supposed rural heartland speaking, as well as writing only standard English, although admittedly some of them sounded like Brendan Rodgers after a night emptying Ferguson's drinks cabinet...

[Charlie Darwin]

Maybe they'll have the collective memory of the violence orchestrated by balaclava-wearing paramilitary goons, who- let's not forget- committed about 90% of the murders during the Troubles.

Were they representing the Irish state?

[peadar1987]

Whilst it's been accorded language status in NI - for reasons of parity of esteem, I suspect - academic linguists tend to agree that it's as a dialect of either English or Scots. Scots itself is often described as a language, but referring to it as a dialect or as a language variety of English would probably be more appropriate. In saying that, there are no agreed strict or set parameters by which dialects and languages can to be distinguished, as far as I know.

I don't view Ulster Scots as a language myself, but that's not to say it's of no value whatsoever. It is what is; something a bit different, possibly even contrived in some instances or hopped upon by those pursuing political agendas, but I still think it has its charms. My uncle is a rural man who runs a farm near Raphoe - the Laggan district's heartland - and his accent is very much influenced by the dialect. He wouldn't identify as Ulster Scots himself, but it certainly means something in a cultural sense to a lot of people around the area who'd identify themselves as Ulster Scots, so in that sense, and rather than mock it like a cultural cynic, I think it can be seen as another interesting and enriching facet of the island of Ireland's culture.

It's interesting, but the fact that the main barrier to mutual intelligibility is the fact that words are spelled wrongly is not really a qualifier for a separate language in my book. Living in Scotland, I contest that Scots is just a dialect of English as well. It uses exactly the same grammar, and 95% of the same vocabulary. Sometimes you get the odd curveball thrown in, but the same could be said of any dialect. I don't consider it that much further removed than Hiberno-English would be. As Charlie says, language is very political. If Norway wasn't independent of Sweden, Norwegian could well just be considered such a dialect of Swedish, for example.