Huge Game for our League

[Sheridan]

Perfect reply sheridan. Also HJK Helsinki i think have been in the champions league and didnt go on to dominate in the league.

Eek, can't believe I forgot to put them in, as it was the thought of their CL participation that prompted the post. I shall edit it.

[gspain]

a few points

1) No problem with Shels moving the kickoff time to cash in on the TV rights. Bohs did the same for Kaiserslautern. Shame it didn't work out though.

2) A successful Shels side will only encourage others to try and emulate them. 30 years ago Athlone were stuffing Valerenga and Bohs beat Esbjerg home and away. 40 years ago Derry put 5 past Lyn Oslo. Now these leagues are at a different level to ours Teams like Rosenborg and Brondby led the way but the overall standard also went up considerably

3) A rich Shelbourne spending money is spreading more money around our league and forcing everyone to raise their standards.

4) One draw over 2 games will ensure our champions are seeded in next season's champions league

5) Shels v Depor raised th eprofile of the whole league. It shows what can be done. If anything Cork, Limerick etc have an even better chance with no local rivals and huge potential fanbase. Cork did us proud in Europe this season too.

[eoinh]

You know this A Face (as does everyone here) that when you talk to non el people about our league they think its absolute ****e. The thought of supporting a team in Ireland is odd and weird to them.
Well, this season Shels and Cork City made people think twice about it. It was mentioned before by people who have no interest in it.



City fans in Cork might not realise it (because there are other city fans to talk to) but LOI does not get a blip on the radar screen in places like Dungarvan where i live. Its alien to them.


City and Shels made these people think again. This cant be a one-off year. Shels even getting a draw on Thursday will help this seasons exploits in Europe happening again.

[patsh]

Don't disagree with any of the posts above, but why are Celtic/Rangers and Rosenburg so "unique" that their kind of dominance could not happen here?

Why are Shels so different to them?
Plenty of evidence and sentiment to show that getting into the group stages is a good thing, and may not lead to domination, but can't see any evidence to explain this uniqueness which could not happen here.
BTW, any fans who don't wish rival clubs all the best, are they "knuckle-draggers" ?
I hope Shels do well on the field, but lose their shirt financially because yet again they have shown their true attitude to fans.

[Sheridan]

Don't disagree with any of the posts above, but why are Celtic/Rangers and Rosenburg so "unique" that their kind of dominance could not happen here?

Why are Shels so different to them?
Plenty of evidence and sentiment to show that getting into the group stages is a good thing, and may not lead to domination, but can't see any evidence explain this uniqueness which could not happen here.
BTW, any fans who don't wish other clubs all the best, are they "knuckle-draggers" ?
I hope Shels do well on the field, but lose their shirt financially because yet again they have shown their true attitude to fans.

Celtic and Rangers were always in a position to pull away as they did. (Incidentally, it amuses me when people fail to realise that the Premiership is as much a two-horse race as the SPL. Three different champions in twelve years, one of them an inexplicable once-off!) But ask yourself, does the Celtic-Rangers phenomenon exist because of their Champions League exploits (obviously not, as they've both done comparatively f*ck all) or because they're pulling in 40/50/60k attendances every week? There are particular cultural and financial factors at play (not least the arms-race which led to the Old Firm desperately trying to out-spend one another to the extent that others were left in their wake) there which don't exist in Ireland.

Rosenborg, again, is an entirely different situation. Its genesis is in the Elite Sport programme founded by the Norwegian government in the early eighties to make the country competitive in football and athletics. Rosenborg won three consecutive championships before they ever made the CL, so their dominance can't be attributed to Champions League money alone (also, they've dragged the likes of Molde into the CL on the back of their achievements.)

None of these factors are relevant here.

In answer to your other question; yes, 90% of them anyway. It's immediately evident from the way they express themselves. They're not hard to spot.

[Colm]

There are valid arguments being made on both sides here but the simple fact of the matter is I don't want to see Shels doing well.

It might not be a sensible or logical argument but I hate Shels, they are our biggest rivals and it sickens me to see them doing well. I wonder were Rangers fans wishing Celtic luck against Barca last night or will Man City fans be wishing Utd luck against Lyon tonight, afterall it's for the good of the league! Of course they weren't because they are rivals and they hate each other and, in general, football fans take pleasure when their rivals are beaten. Shels are our rivals and I don't want them to do well, partly because of the fact that it could lead to them dominating for a year or two and partly because I simply don't want to see Ollie Byrne and his goons with smiles on their faces. I suppose in the eyes of our intellectually superior Dublin City fan that would make me a "knuckle dragger" but I don't really care!

I know what some of you are saying about it raising the profile of the league but does it really in the long term? I mean look at when we were in Europe, we got successive sell outs but then just a week after the Nantes game less than 5000 showed up to watch the Munster derby. Likewise with Shels they got 24000 (with more ticketless outside) yet they will be lucky to get half that tomorrow night. As far as I'm concerned it raises the league/clubs profile in the immediate but the general public forget very very quickly.

[thecorner]

CelGers - bad example, unique situation. Rosenborg - bad example, unique situation.
.

how can u have 2 unique situations

doesnt this make them not unique

[Bald Student]

In answer to your other question; yes, 90% of them anyway. It's immediately evident from the way they express themselves. They're not hard to spot.

I hope that I'm in the other 10%.

More seriously though, I think that an eL team that qualified for a group stage of either european competition would find it hard to win the league that season with the ammount of extra games and travelling to be done, all of them in the final third of the season.

On another point, does this argument become academic if Tolka Park is rezoned, as is the current plan, and Shels make 20 million euro from the sale. That's worth a lot more than the Champions League.

[Sheridan]

how can u have 2 unique situations

doesnt this make them not unique

What?

Unique situation 1: Mr. A can't get to work because his bus was beamed aboard a spaceship.

Unique situation 2: Mr. B can't get to work because Brett Anderson from Suede is standing in front of his front door refusing to let him out.

Two unique situations with the same outcome, I think you'll agree.

[eoinh]

There are valid arguments being made on both sides here but the simple fact of the matter is I don't want to see Shels doing well.

It might not be a sensible or logical argument but I hate Shels, they are our biggest rivals and it sickens me to see them doing well. I wonder were Rangers fans wishing Celtic luck against Barca last night or will Man City fans be wishing Utd luck against Lyon tonight, afterall it's for the good of the league! Of course they weren't because they are rivals and they hate each other and, in general, football fans take pleasure when their rivals are beaten. Shels are our rivals and I don't want them to do well, partly because of the fact that it could lead to them dominating for a year or two and partly because I simply don't want to see Ollie Byrne and his goons with smiles on their faces. I suppose in the eyes of our intellectually superior Dublin City fan that would make me a "knuckle dragger" but I don't really care!

I know what some of you are saying about it raising the profile of the league but does it really in the long term? I mean look at when we were in Europe, we got successive sell outs but then just a week after the Nantes game less than 5000 showed up to watch the Munster derby. Likewise with Shels they got 24000 (with more ticketless outside) yet they will be lucky to get half that tomorrow night. As far as I'm concerned it raises the league/clubs profile in the immediate but the general public forget very very quickly.

Colm with regard to what youre saying about Manurea and $eltic - they are different situations. No matter what happens in the matchs tonight people will still think the Premier****e is the greatest thing going. What happens wont really affect the seeding of that League.

We got 5000 for the Munster Derby - well thats not bad. if all LOI games in the country got that figure I'ld be happy.
Going back to shels v us a few weeks ago. They beat us fair and square. They deserved to beat us that night. Their goal was a well worked beauty (Jeez im talking like a Shels fan - father forgive me ) but we have to learn from that defeat. We dont need Shels to fail, we need to win and become more professional. Im sure Dolan and Lennox know this. I want a strong league. I want Cork City to be the biggest thing in it. i want to be a big duck in a big pond not a small duck in a small pond.

[thecorner]

What?

Unique situation 1: Mr. A can't get to work because his bus was beamed aboard a spaceship.

Unique situation 2: Mr. B can't get to work because Brett Anderson from Suede is standing in front of his front door refusing to let him out.

Two unique situations with the same outcome, I think you'll agree.

same outcome.....different circumstances...
celgers,rosenberg...same circumstances


cant be unique bud

[Sheridan]

same outcome.....different circumstances...
celgers,rosenberg...same circumstances


cant be unique bud

I repeat: what? They're totally different circumstances. Unless 1 > 2.

Do you honestly not realise this or are you just winding me up?

[LFC in Exile]

I am convinced by the argument about the non-competitiveness of the league if Shels win. All clubs shouldbe the same standard to make the league interesting.

Therefore I propose that the premier clubs should share out their players on loan and take on some 1st division players. This would mean that all the clubs would be shi te but there'd be no way of predicting who'd win the league/promotion etc.

If an even standard is what is being called for then it is much easier to gravitate to wards a lower standard than a higher standard.

I am stunned to hear eL fans hoping an eL club get beaten in Europe. Whatever happened to solidarity in promoting the league? This me-fein attitude has held the league back all these years. Just lie back and think of the coefficient.

[A face]

Mr. A can't get to work because his bus was beamed aboard a spaceship ................. Mr. B can't get to work because Brett Anderson from Suede is standing in front of his front door refusing to let him out.

Hey, i was fine with it all up until now ..... Young man .. you have the run of yourself ( )

All good points and well made !!

A good thread and it has been well debated !!

[patsh]

Celtic and Rangers were always in a position to pull away as they did. (Incidentally, it amuses me when people fail to realise that the Premiership is as much a two-horse race as the SPL. Three different champions in twelve years, one of them an inexplicable once-off!) But ask yourself, does the Celtic-Rangers phenomenon exist because of their Champions League exploits (obviously not, as they've both done comparatively f*ck all) or because they're pulling in 40/50/60k attendances every week? There are particular cultural and financial factors at play (not least the arms-race which led to the Old Firm desperately trying to out-spend one another to the extent that others were left in their wake) there which don't exist in Ireland.

Rosenborg, again, is an entirely different situation. Its genesis is in the Elite Sport programme founded by the Norwegian government in the early eighties to make the country competitive in football and athletics. Rosenborg won three consecutive championships before they ever made the CL, so their dominance can't be attributed to Champions League money alone (also, they've dragged the likes of Molde into the CL on the back of their achievements.)

None of these factors are relevant here.

In answer to your other question; yes, 90% of them anyway. It's immediately evident from the way they express themselves. They're not hard to spot.

1. The common denominator between Celtic/Rangers, Rosenborg, Man U/Arsenal/Chelsea is money. Thats why they dominate their respective leagues. A full-time club in the eL probably needs around €1.5 to €2 million a year. If one club gets access to €5 - 600,000, on top of its other income, that club has the potential for massive outlay on players, facilities etc. in relative terms to all other clubs.

2. Shels not getting any further in Europe will not hold eL clubs back. City, Bohs, Drogs, Derry, Longford, even Dublin City are all clubs with long term plans, who are striving to get better and better both on and off the field. The people who run these clubs want bigger, better more successful clubs themselves, they didn't suddenly think it would be a good idea becuse they saw Shels doing well in Europe. With the exception of Waterford, (and Pats and Rovers are too concerned with simple financial survival at the moment), all clubs in the eL are trying to raise the standard as much as they can, not looking for the lowest common denominator.

3. It may be your opinion Sheridan, but claiming that 90% of eL fans are knuckle-draggers is the same kind of negativeness you accuse those same knuckle-draggers of.

[joeSoap]

If you want to seee clubs like Lazio at the cross cheer on shels.

No to mediocrity!

I thought Lazio were quite mediocre last season when I saw them...

[inexile]

It might not be a sensible or logical argument but I hate Shels, they are our biggest rivals and it sickens me to see them doing well. I wonder were Rangers fans wishing Celtic luck against Barca last night or will Man City fans be wishing Utd luck against Lyon tonight, afterall it's for the good of the league! Of course they weren't because they are rivals and they hate each other and, in general, football fans take pleasure when their rivals are beaten. Shels are our rivals and I don't want them to do well,



isnt that the yob culture that prevails in England that sees them infamous throughtout Europe as a travelling band of supporters? Because they are so selfish and cant accept that their team cant win all the time and they hate their rivals so much that would be quite happy to kick the sh1te outta them cos at least that way they might have lost the match but they won the fight, maybe you think im being foolish but thats how it starts, you use the word hate and hatred leads to violent notions and action then if the yob culture starts here around football matches and continues on abroad we will be no better than the hooligans that run riot in the English game. To me it seems childish even as a staunch Celtic Fan if you wanna use that example I dont hate Rangers or their fans whats the point if I hate them hard enough will they see the error of their ways and support Celtic? I doubt it. Rivalry is fine hatred isnt.

[eoinh]

2. Shels not getting any further in Europe will not hold eL clubs back. City, Bohs, Drogs, Derry, Longford, even Dublin City are all clubs with long term plans, who are striving to get better and better both on and off the field. The people who run these clubs want bigger, better more successful clubs themselves, they didn't suddenly think it would be a good idea becuse they saw Shels doing well in Europe. With the exception of Waterford, (and Pats and Rovers are too concerned with simple financial survival at the moment), all clubs in the eL are trying to raise the standard as much as they can, not looking for the lowest common denominator.

"Plans" have been round the LOI since 1922. Plans dont get you anywhere - money does.
I would want to explain wishing shels to do well tonight by using a Formula 1 analogy. Shels are going fast, use their slipstream to overtake them.
Rosenborgs succcess has allowed large amounts of money to go to other clubs in Norway. Ive been to three football grounds in Norway. All were way better than anything you'll find here. Brann Bergen who play in the second division have a bigger better and more modern stadium than the one which the Irish national team plays in.

[patsh]

"Plans" have been round the LOI since 1922. Plans dont get you anywhere - money does.

So the money will get Shels somewhere, and those clubs that can't get the same type of money will get where exactly....?
I reiterate that I would like to see Shels do well on the pitch.

However, this attitude that somehow Shels success will see the rest of us right, those who realise this are "real" and superior eL fans, and anyone who says otherwise is a "knuckle-dragger" a "yob" and "is quite happy to kick the sh*te out of" rivals, is absolute bulls*ht, Eoin.
Oily Byrne and his cohorts don't give a tuppenny f*ck for this league, its fans or soccer in this country.

[inexile]

but 'oily' byrne obviously does give a 4uck about football in this country because he is willing to get up off his arse and invest and try and bring his club forward which no matter what anyone says about him he has done