U15 vs Juventus

[ArdeeBhoy]

They are here for more than a couple of years? Though take the point about their heads being turned.

In which case it should be the countries their parents come from. Not just another country that just qualifies them on 'residency' grounds after, is it 6 yrs?
A point I've made on this forum many times...

[DannyInvincible]

I think the implication is that it's taken them out of the Irish system and makes them less likely to represent Ireland.

But sure, as Irish citizens, they'd only be eligible to represent Ireland anyway rather than their new host country, or are you suggesting that they just might not be bothered even if their option was limited to ourselves only?

Des Tomlinson, the FAI’s intercultural officer, had the following to say:

They would still be aware of their family’s country of origin and the traditions that they are being taught at home. But if you talk to Noe (Baba, the 16 year-old born in Cameroon who has lived and played in Castlebar for the last six years and who has just signed for Fulham) his socialisation is in Mayo. For the lads in Corduff, it’s Corduff. They all have Irish passports and they all feel Irish.

So, is there a need to worry about them more so than others? Why should they be viewed as any different to any other Irish kid moving abroad? A "native" can just as easily decide not to represent us. Think Stephen Ireland. Luckily, he can sort himself with one of these now:

[Charlie Darwin]

Well I meant their home country. I'm sure somewhere like the Ivory Coast has closer links to Belgium than it does to Ireland - other players from the same country at the same club could turn their heads to their country of birth, or simply moving means their links to Ireland are effectively cut.

[DannyInvincible]

They are here for more than a couple of years? Though take the point about their heads being turned.

In which case it should be the countries their parents come from. Not just another country that just qualifies them on 'residency' grounds after, is it 6 yrs?

The law will vary depending on state concerned. If the player acquires a new nationality after the age of 18, however, he must have been resident in the territory of his new association for at least five years to be eligible. If he somehow manages to acquire citizenship of his new host state before that age between moving from Ireland to the new state, he's eligible to play for the association of the new host territory under article 5 as FIFA evidently don't deem such to be an acquisition of a new nationality. Is such even likely though? I wouldn't imagine so.

[geysir]

I think the implication is that it's taken them out of the Irish system and makes them less likely to represent Ireland.

You have to appreciate that comment was not made by a football man.
And he was wrong about the citizenship laws as applied to Heighway.
I would also question the relevance of the comment he made about Emeka Onwubiko "who had something like a dozen caps before he got his passport, but now they’re excluded."
Emeka became an Irish citizen in Feb 2007. He couldn't play competitive underage games until he gained Irish nationality, which he got after 3 years residency. Naturally his ability to travel abroad was restricted until he had an Irish passport.

[Charlie Darwin]

Do you not think it's a bit silly that players who are good enough for the international set-up aren't being brought in, and that they might have less of a connection to the team if they emigrate without any prior involvement?

[DannyInvincible]

Well I meant their home country. I'm sure somewhere like the Ivory Coast has closer links to Belgium than it does to Ireland - other players from the same country at the same club could turn their heads to their country of birth, or simply moving means their links to Ireland are effectively cut.

I see. Their parents will still be based here, just like the parents of any other Irish kids who move abroad though. And they'll have grown up within Irish society surrounded by Irish culture, just like any other Irish kids who move abroad. If they still feel little affinity with Ireland but a strong connection to their family's country of origin in light of that, that's their entitlement. Further, their opting to play for the country of origin of their parents would also be dependent on that state permitting the possession of dual citizenship.

[DannyInvincible]

Do you not think it's a bit silly that players who are good enough for the international set-up aren't being brought in, and that they might have less of a connection to the team if they emigrate without any prior involvement?

Right, I think I'm reading him as intended now. They move abroad as soon as they've received their passport without having been able to partake in our international set-up by virtue of the delay in receiving said passport? It would seem to lack sense from a future development persepctive that these players are not selected, but do the FAI have the option of selecting non-nationals if the players haven't yet acquired (proof of their) Irish citizenship?

[Charlie Darwin]

There aren't many African states that don't offer dual citizenship, as far as I know. And assuming the parents are economic migrants, there's no guarantee they'll still be based here, and even if they aren't they might be moving with their child. The fact is that if somebody hasn't been living in Ireland for long, leaving the country is going to have a negative impact on their affinity for the country, especially if they've been denied recognition by the national set-up on account of their perceived lack of Irishness.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's a very subjective point in the second paragraph, CD. Only the individual would know.

Also,

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...327997546.html

[ArdeeBhoy]

The law will vary depending on state concerned. If the player acquires a new nationality after the age of 18, however, he must have been resident in the territory of his new association for at least five years to be eligible. If he somehow manages to acquire citizenship of his new host state before that age between moving from Ireland to the new state, he's eligible to play for the association of the new host territory under article 5 as FIFA evidently don't deem such to be an acquisition of a new nationality. Is such even likely though? I wouldn't imagine so.

Actually, the second part I believe will become more prevalent as the scope to use this becomes more 'abused'.
eg. as per international cricket and rugby...

[DannyInvincible]

Actually, the second part I believe will become more prevalent as the scope to use this becomes more 'abused'.
eg. as per international cricket and rugby...

In the sense of states granting citizenship to minors willy-nilly? If FIFA sense their rules are being abused by what they perceive to be a loophole, I'd expect them to find some way of tightening their eligibility criteria like they did when the case of Qater naturalising Brazilians came to light.

[geysir]

Do you not think it's a bit silly that players who are good enough for the international set-up aren't being brought in, and that they might have less of a connection to the team if they emigrate without any prior involvement?

Afaiu, Emeka was brought in to the set up, played in underage friendlies on home ground and as soon as he received his passport he became a part of the competitive squad.
I misunderstood in what context he was being used as an example.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is he not being used as an example of best practice/how youngsters should be brought into the squads?

On a side note, I see the anti-immigration lot are beginning to descend on the article. Nothing is safe...

[DannyInvincible]

Lordy.

Yet more pro diversity force feeding from the IT. Not once in the past twenty years has the unprecedented phenomenon of mass immigration been discussed in any meaningful way by the Irish media or political classes, not once in the past twenty years have the indigenous Irish been consulted on this issue. Instead we get more patronising clap trap espousing the infinitely positive benefits of multi-culturalism. Aggressive liberal bigotry of this nature is deeply worrying as it repeatedly & wilfully denies a voice to those native Irish who may hold a contrary viewpoint. Why is multi-culturalism & extreme social democratic pluralist ideology being foisted upon Irish society without any consultative process, why is our media so complicit is this profoundly undemocratic project in social engineering?

So who are the "indigenous Irish" exactly? Pure-blood Gaels? Is Ryder a surname of Gaelic origin?

The democratic process is the public consultative process where Irish citizens can have their say on social policy. If there was a popular will for exclusion based on ethnicity from Ireland's civic conception of nationality, I'm sure we'd see the effects of it in democratic decision and policy-making. Thankfully, however, the reality is that such xenophobic views are minority fringe views. The vast majority of Irish people will either have no issue with such a story as this or will see it as overwhelmingly positive and culturally enriching.

[Charlie Darwin]

Lordy.



So who are the "indigenous Irish" exactly? Pure-blood Gaels? Is Ryder a surname of Gaelic origin?

The democratic process is the public consultative process where Irish citizens can have their say on social policy. If there was a popular will for exclusion based on ethnicity from Ireland's civic conception of nationality, I'm sure we'd see the effects of it in democratic decision and policy-making. Thankfully, however, the reality is that such xenophobic views are minority fringe views. The vast majority of Irish people will either have no issue with such a story as this or will see it as overwhelmingly positive and culturally enriching.

Well it's only a few years since Amendment 27 was passed. As unjust as I think it is, it would be foolish to deny there is a strong element of ethnic exclusion in mainstream Ireland's concept of Irishness.

[DannyInvincible]

Well it's only a few years since Amendment 27 was passed. As unjust as I think it is, it would be foolish to deny there is a strong element of ethnic exclusion in mainstream Ireland's concept of Irishness.

Perhaps. I suppose I'm thinking along the lines of Irish nationality not being restricted along explicitly ethnic lines from immigrants, or those of immigrant families, who offer something in return to Irish society for the granting of citizenship.

[ArdeeBhoy]

In the sense of states granting citizenship to minors willy-nilly? If FIFA sense their rules are being abused by what they perceive to be a loophole, I'd expect them to find some way of tightening their eligibility criteria like they did when the case of Qater naturalising Brazilians came to light.

Not just minors. Look at Arteta, Cuducini and Almunia(FFS) being linked with 'Ingerland'.

Agree they might well tighten loopholes but don't share your overall confidence.

[Charlie Darwin]

Perhaps. I suppose I'm thinking along the lines of Irish nationality not being restricted along explicitly ethnic lines from immigrants, or those of immigrant families, who offer something in return to Irish society for the granting of citizenship.

But it is restricted along ethnic lines because those without Irish or British parents are denied automatic citizenship. We are an inclusive country in the main but we shouldn't think of ourselves as being without fault.

[DannyInvincible]

Not just minors. Look at Arteta, Cuducini and Almunia(FFS) being linked with 'Ingerland'.

Agree they might well tighten loopholes but don't share your overall confidence.

They were only linked with England call-ups by the media subsequent to acquiring British citizenship after periods of residence in the UK and seemingly satisfying FIFA's five-years-of-residency-after-18 criterion. As it happened, Arteta and Cudicini could never have been eligible to play for England as they did not satisfy eligibility regulation 8.1(a); neither possessed British citizenship at the time they represented their countries of birth in official competition at under-age level.