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Thread: Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

  1. #381
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Here's the article: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-36875649.html
    I'm not really sure what he's trying to say, is it that the system has worked in the past producing players like Duff, Keane, McGrath, etc why change it?
    Isn't the problem that the schoolboy clubs were producing players with the aim of selling then to English academies, instead of for the national side?

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  3. #382
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    Thanks Tets. Yes, that's my understanding too. And the production line hasn't exactly been producing since the Duff/Keane/Dunne era either. His opposition to LOI clubs is also based on their lack of tradition in underage development. The whole crux of this is to join up the pyramid, making a move to a LOI underage team or senior domestic football the next step up for a schoolboy club player. The LOI clubs must have the infrastructure to accommodate that. But I don't see this as an "either/or" situation. Schoolboy clubs can still develop players and sell to England but they can also just do what they should be doing - working with young kids until they're ready to move up. The LOI clubs' new role is filling the big gap in the pyramid that previously existed. That's my basic understanding anyway.

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    Just watching Croatia against Denmark in the World Cup here and a few things jumped out at me, from an Irish perspective. There was much noise after the second leg against Denmark that they were so much more technically proficient than us. I think that their technical proficiency was blown up. Aside from Delaney and Eriksen, I feel we match them easily. Tonight against Croatia, it was clearly evident that it is Croatia that would be a mile away from us in that regard. All night their midfielders were coming looking for the ball off the centre-halves with a man behind them. I couldn't believe the amount of times Rakitic, Kovacic and Modric demanded the ball whilst a Dane was breathing down their neck. Even their full-backs had this calmness (which bordered on lackadaisical) when being pressed by Danish wingers or when going forward with the ball. Lovren went rogue with wayward long balls on a few occasions but Vida always utilised the outball, be it a midfielder or full-back. They lacked intensity though. I was disappointed with that.

    Intensity wouldn't be something that we would lack. But we would lack the calmness on the ball. For example, for all his positive traits, Jeff Hendrick would never be able to come demand the ball from his centre-halves or even slightly further forward around the middle where he would be expected and required to maintain possession. There is an inherent fear of losing possession in our players which manifested itself a few times for the Danish goals against us, for example Stephen Ward on a few occasions.

    This is one of the reasons we have been delighted to play Rice in midfield. And who will take over from Rice or play beside him when fit? James McCarthy most likely. Both players that weren't developed in our system. That composure, for all his industry, also goes missing when Meyler is at the base of our midfield.

    So how is this developed? I don't know anything about youth development in football. I do know, however, that Croatia consistently produce these players (Boban, prototype). Dinamo Zagreb and Hajduk Split churn out these midfielders. The population of Croatia is only slgihtly in excess of 4million. Of course, if it was as easy as copying Croatia then everyone would be at it. But I'm just intrigued by Croatia in a different way to the country that we would normally compare ourselves, refer and defer to (through Ruud Dokter) in the context of youth development- the Netherlands.
    Last edited by Olé Olé; 01/07/2018 at 9:02 PM.

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  6. #384
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    Willingness to receive the ball under pressure and the ability to protect it are really valuable. Rice has it, Gibson had it, but few others do. I thought young Tyreke Wright(?) in our U17s was brilliant at receiving the ball under pressure when I saw him against Bosnia. We've had a collective fear of losing the ball in our half ever since Charlton's days.

    I've loved the number of teams who take short goal kicks even under pressure in this World Cup. Imagine an Irish keeper taking a short goal kick to Shane Duffy tightly marked, expecting a one-two and a further one-two with a full back. But France scored from one such move and other dangerous attacks have been spawned from this situation. Belgium were almost suicidal against England with their short goal kicks, but then again, they and been under orders to lose

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    GOOD LUCK TO ENGLAND IN THE WORLD CUP - THEY DESERVE IT.
    Probably not going to get too many 'likes' for this post, but it's time to start giving credit where it is due. Finally English football is coming out of the dark ages to play the game the way it is supposed to be played.
    Gone, it appears, is the long ball game which has dogged their international team for almost half a century, replaced by a more measured passing and technical version.
    The question which now must be asked is will we benefit from this rebirth of the English game? Will our lads take heart from seeing their club mates play the game properly, and get results for their efforts?
    Seeing is believing as they say. And, I guess, the $64K question, will Martin O'Neill be the man to usher in a new style of football soccer similar to the way England are currently playing?
    Is our future bright, or will it just be more of the same old ####

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    I really DON'T want England to win the WC, but as you say credit where it's due. A lot of the old problems seem to be fixed, ball retention, game management etc. I still see them as a set piece team rather than anything particularly sophisticated but this is a young team and England has done really well at all the underage levels in the last few years and could soon start to dominate. I'm still an old curmudgeon though and think that even we could be in good stead if we were in a mini-tournament with Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden.

    I have no faith in O'Neill whatsoever, though we have been experimenting with 3 at the back. I think he picks the wrong players and is far too reactive. I don't think he's on top of developments in the world game over the last decade.

    But O'Neill isn't the story. The Emerging Talent programme appears to be bearing fruit. I was very impressed on many levels with our under 17s. I do worry about the 21s though as King is too old school. There is no consistency between junior and senior teams in terms of set up. The LOI/ schoolboy club power shift is a good thing and several clubs like Rovers are doing good things at youth level. Parts of our system are working well, others aren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    And, I guess, the $64K question, will Martin O'Neill be the man to usher in a new style of football soccer similar to the way England are currently playing?
    Is our future bright, or will it just be more of the same old ####
    I think, as much as I am loving this WC (soon as someone finally puts the brakes on England, ill fully relax and enjoy what remains of, it even more - yes, I realise that needs to happen real soon) it has been so apparent that whatever remains of MON's tenure over us, is time wasted. The way 'lesser' nations sides have superbly used the ball even after being under periods of severe pressure is something that's of no interest to the man, and his punditry on ITV although entertaining at times has betrayed that this mindset will not be changing from him, more than that in fact, I don't think his arrogance even allows him to see how the game has levelled up from what he sends his sides out to do.

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  11. #388
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    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/990806/

    This Is good to see Ex players Been involved.

  12. #389
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    Stephen Hunt: German model worth following to help our young players develop: https://www.independent.ie/sport/col...-37345077.html
    A few weeks ago I had a conversation with Ruud Dokter and he said there is no right or wrong path to the Irish senior team for a talented underage boy in Ireland. But what we now have is a structure in place which is giving us a chance of developing more of these players into internationals.
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

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    Good article in the Independent on the role of parents in a footballer's development: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...b56b7acf53485d
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    O'Neill is enthusiastic about the talent coming through from under 17 and under 19 squads: 'We should be able to pick players from this country' - Martin O'Neill feels Ireland won't need to rely on granny rule in the future
    "I was speaking to our young managers only the other day, the lads leading the under 17s and 19s, you wouldn't believe how enthusiastic those lads are, how talented those young lads are. You wouldn't believe it," O'Neill said.
    "The players want to play for their country. These things here coming up [with players declaring or not declaring for Ireland], it won't be in my time but you will see a spell here where we will have proper Premier League players playing for us.
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

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    Report on the recent under 15 training camp.
    Pat Quinn's son, (ie Alan and Stephen's nephew) was involved in the camp and Pat speaks to the reporter

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    Diets, trials and "off the wall" schedules: Inside football development in Ireland
    It is one of the quirkier facts of Irish football that it took until June 2018 and Darragh Lenihan’s arrival on after 35 minutes for John O’Shea in the game against the USA before the record books said the county of Meath had produced an Irish senior international.
    The expansion over the county border of Dublin’s suburbs should mean that number two is not quite so long coming but in the meantime there may be a generation of players who, when they line out for their country in the coming years, will look back and reflect on how that part of their story started there.
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

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    https://m.independent.ie/sport/socce...-37583546.html article discussing the pathway to a professional career in soccer to a that of a niche world sport

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    Worthwhile article in the sense that it shows just how incomparable the two sports are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Worthwhile article in the sense that it shows just how incomparable the two sports are.
    Exactly and reinforces how lazy and idiotic all those articles over the last few weeks have been comparing the two. It's like asking how come athletics can't just follow the boxing template to win the 1500 metres at the Olympics. Idiotic

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  23. #397
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    Steven Reid and Lee Carsley are speaking about coaching in Bournemouth on Monday: https://tombatescoaching.com/the-fut...#wolverhampton
    There's a follow up event in Dublin in a month, if anyone is interested
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

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  25. #398
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    Thoughts on this? -

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-37694406.html


    'This is a now or never moment' - Niall Quinn's €40m masterplan to overhaul structure of Irish game
    Daniel McDonnell January 9 2019

    Niall Quinn says he has been contacted by interested parties who want to get behind his plan to create new academies for every League of Ireland club with the help of state funding.

    But the former Ireland striker is yet to speak with anybody from the FAI and says he favours getting the government on board before presenting a proposal to the football authorities.

    Quinn believes that a figure in the region of €40m - that's €2m per club - would be required to give every club an academy and his argument is that proper education should be at the centre of any plan.

    He feels that an independent league - free from FAI control - should offer a viable alternative to sending kids away to England at 16.

    The 52-year-old also believes that a new structure should target overseas talent to lift standards and generate funds.

    Quinn favours tax breaks to encourage investment and get the idea off the ground and indicated that Red Strike - an Irish-led company which has created academies in Vietnam and South Africa - are an example of one group that wants to come into the market here.

    "Privately, I've had some fantastic people get in touch with me; lovers of the game who really want to see the industry improve here," he said.

    "I've spoken to the Red Strike guys and we see this as a now-or-never moment to think differently.

    "I look at tax breaks. We've an awful lot of multi-national companies here who do big CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) plays so why couldn't it be up to football to catch up with other sports? Am I mad? Maybe. These are thoughts and ideas and we may get a white paper together in time. Some ideas have started to come out. And if nothing else, this will bring awareness that our industry needs to alter here.

    "I'm not trying to form a business. I don't want to be chief executive of the FAI, but what I want to do is to get the debate going.

    "I feel I've other people to start asking the questions with me and if we can get something solid I'd love to knock on John Delaney's door and say, 'Come on, let's see this.' And I know John, he would entertain me."

    Quinn also wants to tap into immigration investment schemes to make it easier to bring in foreign players and spread them around - possibly even with a view to utilising residency rules so they could one day play for Ireland.

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    ...follow up piece -

    'The people's game in this country is football' - Niall Quinn responds to Neil Francis' rugby comments.

    His plan for a new direction in Irish football is partially influenced by how rugby have managed their product so Niall Quinn does not mean to cause offence.

    But he was a bit taken aback by a recent Neil Francis column in the Sunday Independent which declared that Jonathan Sexton's drop goal in Paris last year was Ireland's greatest sporting moment.

    "I was actually there for it and it was excellent," said Quinn. "And I saw Neil's column - 'Greater than 1990, the country stopped in its tracks.'

    "Did they stop in Ballyfermot? Did they stop in Crumlin? Did they stop in Finglas? Did they stop in the North Wall? I don't think so. The people's game when it goes well for our country is our industry - it's our football."

    It's this line of thinking - and the participation figures to go with it - that will form the emotional basis of Quinn's argument as he tries to put together a proposal to bring to government to drive investment in the League of Ireland.

    He wants funding for each club to develop their own academy with an educational perspective seriously factored into it - a proper one in comparison to what's on offer in England.

    "I was the chairman of a Premier League club (Sunderland) who possibly got awards for the education syllabus we put in place for our players," he said. "And they were tourism certificates, lifesaving certificates. Not that they were worthless, but you could go to a swimming pool and get a badge. There was no way it was going to put them into employment."

    The Dubliner's argument is that investing in football will help individuals that are otherwise exported to England at a young age with nothing to fall back on.

    And it can also lead to greater days for the national side which will benefit the country as a whole.

    Ironically enough, one of his plans would be trying to attract overseas-born players to live in Ireland that could become eligible to wear the green jersey - an avenue that the IRFU have successfully explored.

    "We have got to give ourselves a great shot at getting back to those (Italia '90) days. What does being at the Euros mean to the country?

    "What does being at a World Cup mean to the country? I'd have our sport above rugby all day long for potential grants. But rugby is so good, they have some great people who have done a great job.

    "I'd never give out about them; they've been excellent and they should give us something to aspire to, even though it's a different set of circumstances.

    "We should have more forward thinking on it. And if the government open the door a little bit, I'd love to see a little bit of momentum to go in there. It's time now that football got a fair deal."

    Since Quinn started speaking in broad terms about a plan he would like to put together, he has been contacted by a number of parties who are interested in turning hypothetical discussions into something more substantive.

    He has reached out to individual figures within the League of Ireland, yet concedes they are tied up in their own short-term focus. That's why his plan is to draft a proposal and get state backing which can then be presented to the FAI and the league clubs as an option for the road ahead.

    Questions "All I'm in a position to do is ask questions and move things together and, if it goes into the right area, let the sides come together and see how it goes," said Quinn, who stressed that he would have no interest in getting involved in a role with the FAI - he sees this as an independent plan.

    He has spoken with Red Strike, an Irish-driven sports agency that has expanded into the business of creating academies.

    "They've put in academies now for teams in Vietnam and South Africa. It's almost like a pop-up academy. It covers all the bases and they're trying very hard to bring this into this country," continued Quinn, who was speaking at a Virgin Media press briefing.

    "There is a will for change. I've had some good long conversations with interested parties and if something is to happen, we have to start it from the bottom up. There are people in positions in this country who want to see good things done."

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    ...and finally -

    Daniel McDonnell: 'Niall Quinn may not have all the right answers but it's significant he is asking the questions'

    "It might be mad," said Niall Quinn at one point yesterday as he discussed his vision for a new League of Ireland future shaped around government investment in academies.

    "And I'm possibly not the person to deliver it. But I'm certainly the person to ask the question now."

    This, in many ways, was the most relevant line of the former Ireland striker's lengthy discussion with newspaper journalists about a vision he had briefly outlined on the 'Marian Finucane Show'.

    Some of the details are vague; others would appear to be overly ambitious.

    The concept of tax breaks thrashed out as part of a state deal with multi-national companies would be a hard sell under a number of headings; especially when there is no guarantee of any return in the immediate future.

    In tandem with the construction of academies, Quinn wants to bring foreign players to Ireland - ultimately with the intention of selling them on further down the line.

    He even mentioned the prospect of bringing Brazilians in with a view to exploiting residency rules and making them national team options.

    Officials involved with Irish clubs will tell you there is no shortage of overseas players that are curious about coming to these shores - but finding the right one is a different matter altogether.

    Meanwhile, references to the sale of TV rights and the growth of a league to compare with developments with Australia and America can easily be challenged under headings such as population and infrastructure for starters.

    In saying that, it would be unwise to dismiss Quinn simply because a couple of his ideas seem far-fetched.

    Nor is it helpful for League of Ireland fans to dismiss the Dubliner because he's not a regular presence at grounds here.

    If there were hardcore fans of the league with the contacts to get things done, you'd like to think they would have made themselves known by now.

    The key to a better future is finding the right people from outside to invest and believe in the product here; it's commonly accepted that control over youth development is required and that needs to be funded.

    Quinn's way might not be the cure to all ills, yet it's significant that he has started to make noises and is networking with a view to constructing a plan.

    Leading FAI officials are known to be a tad uneasy about the airtime that Quinn is getting to outline the desire for radical change.

    Contrast that bigger-picture talk with the painfully slow pace of change in Abbotstown; the FAI are prepared to cede control of the League of Ireland after a dozen years where they have struggled to solve basic problems.

    They will argue that club licensing has led to improved governance of clubs - with some notable exceptions of course - and stress that the ship is steadier now.

    But there's still an absence of clear direction in terms of where the league will be ten years from now.

    A new season is around the corner and a lot of the broader questions related to facilities, attendances and marketing could be cut and pasted from two decades ago and applied to today. It's still the same old faces making the big decisions too.

    Quinn is seeking to bring new people into the arena and, as an ex-international and household name, his willingness to instigate a debate should be welcomed. It should embolden others.

    He might have his own motivations for that, but it's still a more worthy contribution to the game than falling in line as an FAI ambassador who turns up a few times per year to cut some tape, pose for a few photos and prop up the status quo.

    Interesting times lie ahead.

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