Q&A with Ruud Dokter in the independent.ie at the weekend: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-34469900.html
Have to say I think Ruud Dokter and even Delaney have to be given credit for what they have implemented and what they are trying to do. As someone who has seen schoolboy football consistently over the last 30years I finally think we are going in the right direction.
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Yes, some credit is due and especially to Dokter. But I do think that DMcD identified key weaknesses such as lack of ex-internationals, lack of contact with Kerr and the big elephant in the room, the fragmented structure of Irish football. Dokter can't change some of this but if JD is worth his salary he ought to be able to rejig the whole structure and join it up.
Instead I feel he is happy to appease the factions in some sort of mutually convenient unwritten non-disruption agreement and then seeks to get the best out of what's in place. Dokter can't change this, but maybe he could involve Kerr and others - the merits of which are debatable, but you'd be inclined to think Kerr, Cunningham, Carsley, Kilbane etc. would be an upgrade on King and Doolin.
There are a few reasons that there are no ex Ireland internationals dealing with the underage set up, the main one is they don’t want to be involved that’s not Delaney's or the FAI's fault. There is nothing to be gained for ex-players in taking a side at any level. Of the names you listed TV work and having family in England would stop them taking a role. Getting their badges even if they come in further up the chain is time consuming to get and apart from maybe the Under 21 job results won't progress any career they might want to have. No matter what Kerr did with the 16's and 18's.
While I agree that King and Doolin bring very little the solution is simply to bring in better people ex internationals or not.
DMcD is only engaging in Delaney bashing jumping on Duffs comment about Brian Kerr not being involved, while I think that Duff is the first big name that would have a real interest in getting involved no matter what the level he is wrong in his comments on Kerr, for the simple reason up until recently Kerr seen himself as a manager of a senior team somewhere. Now that seems to be a non runner he might be willing to be involved in the future.
Dokter and Delaney have made huge structural changes to the game in this country. Bigger than most realise because most in the game don’t see the problem so they don’t recognise the solution that the FAI are in the process of putting in place.
They are in the middle of making one of most important changes in the game in this country in years. I bet not one person on the board can tell me what that is.
The likes of DMCD haven’t a clue how difficult it is to change things in this country, The DDSL and SFAI have the game in this country by the balls and they are very difficult to shift. I was involved with a big representative team playing in the early 90's and again on the management side about 3years back.
The same officials that were there in the early 90's are still in charge. These men are in there 70's and 80's and guess what they were behind the times in the 90's. This is what you are dealing with. These people are running the game in the country
In my opinion Dokter and Delaney are well into sorting this mess out. The fact that Dokter has a grasp of the problem in the time he is here I think is astonishing. They are being very clever and fighting the fights that are important and are going about implementing what they think is right while appearing to be doing it in conjunction with the various groups when they actually are not
Last edited by hoops1; 25/02/2016 at 8:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by hoops1
I'm all ears anyway. Go on.
Hoops, have you noticed any development in skill level at underage level yet since Dokter has come on board? I ask because I am living in hope! Interesting how diplomatic Dokter is in the above article, he certainly is aware of the politics of Irish football. It also still sticks in my throat how we are continuing to develop players for export. I suppose I just need to accept the reality of life.
To answer the above, IMO from what I've seen and heard the FAI are in the process of removing the stranglehold the DDSL and SFAI have on the game in the country and rightly so.
It would take too much time and effort to reform these organisations, time and effort fighting against people that don’t want to change. Organisations that provide games but no proper direction or ideas to improve players. So what do you do? You make them irrelevant
The pathway in most European countries is to funnel the better players into the Professional clubs and up the chain. Easy. But the LOI clubs here were never capable of taking on the big DDSL clubs. They didn’t know how to. Every time they got a half decent team the better players flee to the bigger DDSL or various schoolboy teams around the country. Dog eat dog as is football but in the case of this country the "professional clubs" the one being chewed up.
So the LOI had nothing in the younger ages and picked up the remaining better players that were still around at 17/18 flaws and all.
So what's the plan? The FAI start their league at the upper ages and work down. So we have 19's and 17's which is already taking players as young as 15 and 16 from DDSL , with 15's to come next year. The age for taking players will continue to fall.
Now with the removal of leagues for the younger Small Sided game age groups LOI clubs can start on a par with the bigger DDSL clubs . Shamrock Rovers an example of a very good small sided set up.
Id imagine a 13s and 11's LOI league under some guise will emerge. The 19's-down to 15's league will have gained credibility over the intervening time and everything meets in the middle and they will have a joined up system for the first time ever.
The structure of football in the country will have changed.
I'm speculating here but id imagine some of the bigger schoolboy clubs will end up in some sort of association with the LOI clubs. The difference being it will be on the terms of the LOI clubs. With these teams eventually taking the LOI teams name and strip etc eventually.
The power will have shifted. It will all work all that’s needed is to be given time.
On the skill level, I will just touch on the coaching first. The gap between those getting it right and those continuing the same way as always is getting bigger.
This is not just seen at different clubs but different teams within. . I suppose it’s the nature of the set ups. Having said that the ones getting it right are really impressive.
I won't lie and say that we are producing better players than ever. We have always produced really good players and always will. Kids in this country will always succeed no matter what coaching they get because for the better ones it's in their nature. But we are definitely providing a better environment for kids to play and succeed. Small sided games with more touches, retreat zones encouraging playing out from the back. A better atmosphere for playing, People on the line roaring and shouting at the kids is heard less, even instruction to them is frowned upon, a lot of coaches don’t say anything until half time. All kids getting certain game time. Clubs are also starting to be cleverer about what type of player they want to develop. They are starting to look for a more rounded player.
A kid that scores 5 goals every game but can't control or pass the ball is not seen as the new Messi he's one that needs to improve. They are educating players better. There is a different view of what a good player is emerging.
There is still a long way to go especially with facilities and coaching and making simple decisions like changing to summer footall but we might just be getting the basics right and I would be optimistic about the direction we are going.
Last edited by hoops1; 26/02/2016 at 8:48 AM.
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It's the age of departure that's the issue and Dok appears to have grasped the import of that.
But if the UK departs from the EU, it leaves open a question of what will happen next, re the intl transfer of minors to an association outside the EU.
I think it's interesting you'd bet nobody on this board knows about the FAI setting up age-level LOI leagues.
The treaty of secession from the EU would map out an association agreement that would see the transfer of minors treated the same as to an EU country.
No doubt the relevant government minister will arrive back to Dublin claiming that the indispensable special position of the Republic of Ireland in the life of England has been salvaged from the brexit ashes.
it's the obvious way to go and that's what Ruud has grown up with. A club member for life, from the cradle to the grave. I liked what he had to say in that interview with DO'D
There's too much importance given to the return value of developing the elite. The first priority is upping the all round standard of licensed coaching, at all levels from age of 8 onwards. And the most important years are that 8-12 age group where the foundations are laid for life, where complex connections between technique and motor movements are learned as the body grows.
Most girls start at age 12 and with below standard coaching, their prospects of learning skills are handicapped from the beginning.
As Ireland is about 12 years behind other more advanced countries, I can tell you the future (with a POS certainty), i.e. if Ruud's vision comes to pass. The senior LOI club having 7 age groups from the age of 8 onwards, which also provides a gateway right up to the senior level. Eventually the target will be that the LOI club license will depend upon having all the age grade teams, with fully licensed coaches available for all groups and fined if haven't.
Training fees for the young club members, in the range of eur400 p/a, will cover in part the costs. And the FAI will have to be involved with sponsoring the education and salary of coaches.
Anybody can see that. What is not realised is the FAI are out to finish the DDSL and all its major clubs, Home farm,Kevin's,Stella,Belvo, Cherry Orchard plus the SFAI and there hasn't been a peep from anybody in the game.Above is how they will do it. They are even getting them to agree to changes at grassroots while they are going about it. I think that's pretty impressive myself
Last edited by hoops1; 27/02/2016 at 6:49 PM.
I don't see that plot, how the establishment of under age LOI leagues will be part of a strategy to effect the demise of long established clubs in the Leinster league.
Very interesting. Delaney is nothing if not Macchivellian. Rings true...
I see it more that the FAI are bypassing existing affiliated youth structures and setting up a separate league. The structure for an AI underage league with a north south divide is mostly restricted to the LOI div teams. I don't particularly like that structure, but if it persuades LOI clubs to develop and expand their underage teams then I'll keep an open mind.
Unless LOI clubs expand 50 fold, they will not be able to cater for youth football demand.
Cherry Orchard and Wayside Celtic, they are part of football culture, how can Delaney destroy them? that's a stretch and a half. Those clubs have infrastructure and are firmly rooted.
Is Delaney using Ruud or is this LOI underage thing Ruud's idea? I'd say according to the Indo interview that this is 100% Ruud's idea (and predecessor). This is the dutch/irish solution to an irish problem, a way not to undermine existing structures, a way to leave them do what they do but set up youth academies in the LOI clubs, in a framework which does not threaten existing structures.
Agree with your first point.
But The LOI clubs won't have to expand 50 fold all they will need is to have teams from 8-18 containing all the best players. As simple as it sounds LOI clubs haven’t had this is over 100 years plus of football.
What's coming down the line for the schoolboy clubs is a new role in football one they don’t envisage at the moment. When the shift occurs in the quality of players they have its going to have a massive effect on these clubs.
What you have to understand is, the goal of these clubs is to win and get players to England, now this breeds all sorts of problems for the game in this country.
When the structure is changed as is happening these clubs will lose not only their better players but a lot of coaches too. Because a large portion of coaches at these clubs won't be into taking kids that aren’t the best and won't be winning the major competitions or going to England. Don’t get me wrong I fully understand there are many people in these clubs that are lifers and do huge amounts of good looking for no reward or glory.
My point is they will no longer be considered as big clubs the draw the have will have disappeared. They will become local teams again that won't have players from all over the city.
It will be that or come under control of the LOI clubs. A whole host of problems will be eliminated from underage soccer.
I will bet that if things carry on the direction they are heading in 10-15 years there will virtually be no players from DDSL clubs going to England or representing Ireland.
Some will still exist as local teams, some will come under the control of LOI and some will disappear.
It’s the hold on the game that will be destroyed. We will be into a new era with all the benefits that will come from it, Not before time either.
Last edited by hoops1; 29/02/2016 at 11:15 AM.
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You're talking more about a natural shift, not a shafting.
Established clubs like Wayside, Cherry Orchard, Crumlin have been around since the ark and have been adapting to all sorts of problems in order to survive over the years and who's to say they cannot take actions to adapt (in Darwin like fashion) to the establishment of the LOI underage structures.
Mostly, no matter what country (within reason), there are top league clubs with established academy structures and amateur clubs with thriving academy structures in the lower leagues.
I will stop at this. Kevins have arguably the finest underage set up in the country. They applied to join the under 17's league and were told no. Why? They would put the LOI clubs to shame in what they are doing. But the correct course of action is to exclude them for the long term gain. They are not invited to the party. If you let them in you are defeating everything you have already done. There simply isn't enough good players around to have a LOI league and a schoolboy league of a standard that will develop good players for senior football at the highest level. The FAI know this and have made the decision it’s the LOI route is the way to go. It's a well-planned out strategy that if fully implemented will have huge benefits.. The DDSL/SFAI is not fit for purpose if you think the they will be happy with when they see the results of the changes you don’t know the way they think or act. In time the majority of future internationals and professionals will no longer come through their ranks. The FAI have decided this. Now call that whatever you want. Thats what's happening. You still might have all the above clubs doing the same things, I doubt it but one thing is certain they wont be of any real relevance at the highest level.
Last edited by hoops1; 29/02/2016 at 3:01 PM.
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The clubs that will adapt are the ones who decide to offer players something after the age of 16, after the likelihood of selling them to England for a few grand is gone. A lot of them will never have even imagined there'd ever be a reason to do such a thing.
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