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Thread: Irl Vs Swiss -Ambition undermined by crushing fear of defeat

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    Seasoned Pro thejollyrodger's Avatar
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    Irl Vs Swiss -Ambition undermined by crushing fear of defeat

    Ambition undermined by crushing fear of defeat


    AS the Irish players emerged from the basement dressing room at the St Jakob stadium on Wednesday night, one player went his own way. While the usual players stopped to talk to the Press and the equally predictable growled and snarled as they headed for the bus, Roy Keane stayed alone with his thoughts.

    Apart from a press conference on his return to the squad in May, Keane has stayed quiet each time he has joined up with the Ireland squad. Four years ago, it was different. Ireland walked out of the Amsterdam ArenA with a 2-2 draw after taking a two-goal lead. While Mick McCarthy celebrated, Keane upped the stakes with his famous comments that it was time for the Irish side to be looking for more than a party and a moral victory.

    There are fewer parties thrown within the Irish squad these days and perhaps that pleases Keane. He also has a relationship of trust and respect with Brian Kerr that he never had with McCarthy. Kerr was known to have asked Keane when he came out of retirement not to say anything that could undermine the manager. It is a sign of the change in Keane - and an indication of his working relationship with the Irish manager - that so far he has complied with that request.

    Four years ago, Keane didn't find it so easy and while the side that drew in Switzerland may be less developed than the experienced team which played in Amsterdam, there was as much reason for suggesting last Wednesday that this was two points dropped rather than the point gained that quickly became the party line for players and staff.

    Given the events of 11 months ago, there was every reason for the Irish squad to believe that line. The defeat of October 2003 appears to be seared into the souls of Brian Kerr and his staff. The Swiss side that Ireland played last Wednesday was worse than the poor side that beat Ireland last October.

    The Irish side has improved, but a failure to control things in midfield, along with some poor use of the ball from the full-backs, Steven Carr in particular, created some chaotic moments last Wednesday. Ireland had to rely heavily on Shay Given as the Swiss attacked on the back of Ireland's mistakes but, critically, when Ireland attacked they found time and space around the Swiss goal which could and should have led to more away goals.

    "There's a feeling that we could have won it," Damien Duff, Ireland's most impressive attacking player said later. "In the dressing-room, the lads were saying that the three points were there for the taking."

    Like the rest of the players, Duff went on to express himself happy with the point as Ireland achieved their target for the two matches of four points.

    There are fewer parties thrown within the Irish squad these days and perhaps that pleases Keane

    But the group already shows no indication of working along pre-planned, formulaic lines. Israel's draw last Saturday with France indicates that there may be more than just three teams playing for the top two places. Kerr is characteristically aware of the progress in Israeli football and he will not be under-estimating them.

    "When the draw was made I felt that Israel had been making improvements in the last few years. They've become much more competitive, they've heavily invested in their own football and their teams in the European club competitions have done very well, getting to the later rounds of the Champions League. Their players have become more valuable now around Europe and clubs are interested in signing their players. There is a great passion for football there, a great pride in their country. I'm not surprised, but we can only do our own stuff, get our own points and when we play the other teams try to do damage to them."

    Ireland had the potential on the pitch to do more damage to the Swiss than they did last Wednesday. A draw may have been the objective, but once it became clear that the Swiss were at their weakest when Ireland attacked; their strongest when they had the ball, Ireland should have been given the courageous direction to go and win the game, shake the group up. If Israel were to beat Switzerland in Basle, suddenly the point gained last Wednesday would become two lost.

    But the errors of the first half, added to the fear of another failure in Basle, resulted in a conservative message being drilled into the players at half-time. Ireland, Kerr said later, had been cavalier. The players were told to tighten up in midfield where Hakan Yakin was finding room in the danger area in front of the defenders. The Swiss would be pushed out wide where they would find less room as the full-backs were told not to get forward.

    In effect this mainly applied to Steve Finnan, who had linked effectively with Damien Duff on a couple of occasions, not so well on a few others when Ireland were caught on the counter-attack.

    On the other side of the field, one would imagine the directions to Carr were simple: stay on the pitch. Carr had another poor game - uncomfortable on the ball, he showed no understanding with the inexperienced Reid and instead spent his evening picking fights with team-mates and opponents. While Kilbane was guilty of hesitancy in midfield in the build-up to the Swiss goal, he was presented with a horror pass from Carr who could see what was ahead of him and should have knocked the ball away.

    Having been booked early in the first-half, he was lucky that the poor referee didn't choose to make things easier for the Swiss by sending him off in the second. If John O'Shea is fit, Carr will struggle to keep Finnan out of the side for the trip to Paris. Ireland are likely to be cautious (if they defended deep on Wednesday, how far back will they go to combat the pace of Henry and Cisse?) but they will have to play a lot better if they are to take the point they would be entitled to be satisfied with.

    Kerr is hopeful that Keane's return and a series of matches before the October date will give the former captain a greater sharpness in Paris.

    Keane follows no establishment line so maybe he felt it was better to head for the bus rather than face the media and be tempted to say Ireland could do better. Maybe he was disappointed in himself.

    On the other side of the field, one would imagine the directions to Carr were simple: stay on the pitch

    For the first 45 minutes on Wednesday night, the player's lack of match practice manifested itself in a rookie's inability to keep the ball. All that Keane had learned over more than a decade at the highest level seemed to be abandoned as he put Carr and then Andy O'Brien under pressure with sloppy passes.

    The second half was better as he took it upon himself to lead the more conservative Irish midfield away from goal on occasion, but there must be a worry that when the game is ragged, Keane will find himself off the pace.

    Kerr, however, felt the game was progress. "Roy's had a good spell out of it, he's played a couple of friendly games which were quite decent and now he came back into the real heat. It was a hard game for him, it was a hard game for everybody but I think he contributed very well. His passing sharpened as the game went on and he made some important tackles."

    It remains to be seen what drama will be produced from Old Trafford before the next game, but Kerr insists there is an amicable relationship. "Roy badly wanted to play. It was his own desire combined with the fact that his injury made progress. United are aware of how professional we are and the quality of our own medical back-up. They know we haven't risked any players and we have ensured that their players get the best possible treatment and protection when they are with us. I think that was part of it, but the main part was that Roy wanted it so badly."

    The desire and the leadership Keane offers will remain essential if Ireland are to keep their discipline and prosper in Paris. He may not have been able to make himself heard on Wednesday night, but Steve Finnan was not alone in noticing that if a player cannot hear Keane, he can still see his "look". It is a glance which encourages nearly all to raise their game.

    Stories abounded in Basle of Keane's new nature. He was among the jokers on the plane that flew out from Dublin and upon arrival in Basle he stood at the luggage carousel in long conversation with Graham Barrett. Moments like those cannot be under-estimated as Kerr goes about shaping the young team.

    Perhaps when they are wiser, Kerr will be bolder. Maybe the dangers of defeat were far greater than the rewards from victory last Wednesday.

    Ireland have an ambitious manager who can achieve great things, but he must not let those ambitions be undermined by the forces of conservatism.

    Dion Fanning,
    http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=11410

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    First Team Superhoops's Avatar
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    What is RMK up to?

    Quote Originally Posted by thejollyrodger
    Articles like this make you wonder what Roy's agenda with Ireland is?

    Is he (a) looking to take over from Brian Kerr (b) using Ireland's games as warm-ups for Man.U (c) worming his way back into Ilreand fans good books?

    I suspect probably all three. On Wednesday he looked uninterested, showed none of his leadership skills when we were under the cosh and looked like he was not fit. Yesterday, a mere three days later, the bite and snarl were back with a MOM performance.

    Warning to Brian Kerr 'beware of cute Cork hoors bearing gifts'!

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    Youth Team tonycuna's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Superhoops
    Is he (a) looking to take over from Brian Kerr (b) using Ireland's games as warm-ups for Man.U (c) worming his way back into Ilreand fans good books?

    I suspect probably all three
    I think you're right..
    I adore Roy Keane cause I think he's very important for us, and for what we want to achieve. Despite this probable "new way of play" from him, although he couldn't be fit last wednesday, I think we have to consider him as a basic player in these qualif matches. I know that he probably put more power in ManUtd's matches, but if he's totally fit he can give us a lot of power in the irish matches too, despite in his worth table, there are manutd matches first, and irish matches too.
    I think we have to be very happy about the feeling with him and Kerr. This is already a good start to settle down every problem which can go on in the future.
    I'm 21, I'm italian, but I love Ireland, and I always support the irish national team!

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    Based on that article he may be "worming his way back into Ilreand fans good books?", I certainly don't think he is going to indermine Brian Kerr.

    I am hoping that the Swiss game was a once off but I have a feeling it wasn't, it could have been a monkey on Kerr's back as the last game in Basel was Irelands worst for years and maybe he just focused too much on not losing. Anyhow with Roy Keane, Damien Duff and Robbie Keane all seriosuly lacking match practice it wasn't a bad return from the two games.

    A few things worry me though; Kenny Cunnighamm reminded me a little of Mick McCarthy on the goal we conceded. He is great when the ball is played in from the opposition defense or midfield and he can read it and position himself, but when the ball is live in the last 3rd of the field he looks vulnerable. That failed lunge he made in the Cyprus game that then forced Given into a very good save was another example. We gifted Cyprus two great chances.

    Kevin Kilbane has to be dropped now before he does us some serious harm, he can't pass, he can't tackle he just knocks people over and can't score. Yes he is honest in his effort and works hard but that is not enough. A fit Roy Keane and Matt Holland has to be the obvious partnership.

    Now against the Swiss did Andy Reid have a bad game or was the problem more that he didn't get the ball? He put Robbie Keane through beautifully with a quick accurate pass, but really our midfield was so poor and Carr had such a poor game that we just didn't give him the ball. Against Cyprus he played really well and if it wasn't for his hunger it could have been a sticky result particularly if Cyrus has scored.

    Hats off to Morrison, he has worked hard and deserved his goals. I think he has put in extra training on heading as this was a weak part of his game. I think Morrison and Keane are our best strikers but they do not have a "partnership".

    It's pretty clear from all I have seen and heard that Brian Kerr is a conservative coach, my big disappoinment is that despite all these friendlies we have played it doesn't really look like it has had much purpose. This team has no playing shape, the passing in both games was clumsy and awkard and our pace was too slow. We need to pick up the pace and put some heart back into our game, go back to basics and clear your lines and stop fanning about with short passes in the box - I couldn't believe some of the crap our defenders pulled. And has putting pressure on the opposition completely gone out of fashion? The way we play now we have to score good goals as we no longer put pressure on teams forcing them into mistakes.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    Nationalism is an infantile disease, the measles of mankind

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    First Team Superhoops's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=1MickCollins]Based on that article he may be "worming his way back into Ireland fans good books?", I certainly don't think he is going to indermine Brian Kerr.

    Wasnt suggesting RMK was trying to undermine Kerr. However, if we dont qualify for Germany, Kerr will have to go, particularly as he firmly nailed his colours to the RMK mast. By that time, RMK will be finished playing and where better for him to 'try out' the managerial game.

    Keane needs a big game against France, regardless of the result, otherwise what has been the point in bringing him back and disrupting any settled structure to the midfield by accomodating him for the games (likely to be the important games) in which he either wants to play in or is fit to play in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MickCollins
    It's pretty clear from all I have seen and heard that Brian Kerr is a conservative coach, my big disappoinment is that despite all these friendlies we have played it doesn't really look like it has had much purpose. .
    Agree with most of the things you say.
    Watched the game from behind the goals at the Swiss end, it was a bloody poor match and I think the Swiss are poor side, not in the top 10 in Europe.

    We never upped the pace in the game not sure what Kerrs game plan is/was
    in the 3 big games we've played twice against the Swiss and against the Russians we're were bloody poor, can't blame McCarthy now.

    Ireland can't play the long ball anymore no big man up front and Keane and Morrison do not have the pace to trouble defenders so its gotta be played into feet, this limits the ways we can play .

    My thoughts on the players :

    Given - Brilliant
    Carr - Crap
    Finnan - Best of the back four
    O'Brien - OK
    Cunninhgam - Yakin walked around him for the goal, not good one on one
    Reid - Was he playing
    Keane - Expect a lot more, got into the game more in the 2nd
    Kilbane - Lacks technique at this level
    Duff - Played OK, maybe Murinho has a point

    Keane - A useless whinger who falls over a lot, one good game in 10
    Morrison - Good goal, can't shield the ball though

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    Seasoned Pro thejollyrodger's Avatar
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    I was posting on the other board as well. At the moment I just think that we just dont have the players and maybe were expecting far too much. Just look at the players. Duff, Given O' brien and Finnan were good, but everyone else was crap.

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    Keane needs a big game against France, regardless of the result, otherwise what has been the point in bringing him back and disrupting any settled structure to the midfield by accomodating him for the games
    You make it sound like we have defensive midfielders coming out of our ears. If we didn't have him against Switzerland then we would have had no defensive midfielder in the squad.

    I thought it was strange that Kerr said after the match the some players were venturing to far forward. That's one thing we didn't do enough.

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    First Team Superhoops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brine3
    You make it sound like we have defensive midfielders coming out of our ears. If we didn't have him against Switzerland then we would have had no defensive midfielder in the squad.

    I thought it was strange that Kerr said after the match the some players were venturing to far forward. That's one thing we didn't do enough.
    I watched the game in Basel from the Irish end (behind the goal in which we conceded) and saw Keane give the ball away twice, one of which was needed a superb Given save to prevent a goal, hardly the hallmark of a defensive midfield player.

    I was not aware that Keane was reintroduced into the squad for his defensive qualities. Naively, I thought it was for his drive, his leadership and his ability to drive forward. I saw none of this in Basel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhoops
    I was not aware that Keane was reintroduced into the squad for his defensive qualities. Naively, I thought it was for his drive, his leadership and his ability to drive forward. I saw none of this in Basel.
    He was playing the holding role on Wedensday so wouldn't be getting forward much, if not at all. At Utd he is always partnered with a holding midfielder so gets forward a lot more.

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    First Team Superhoops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eirebhoy
    He was playing the holding role on Wedensday so wouldn't be getting forward much, if not at all. At Utd he is always partnered with a holding midfielder so gets forward a lot more.
    So what role will he play against France?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhoops
    So what role will he play against France?
    He'll probably play the holding role again. You said he was brought in because of his "ability to drive forward" and I was explaining why you didn't see him to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Condex

    Given - Brilliant
    Carr - Crap
    Finnan - Best of the back four
    O'Brien - OK
    Cunninhgam - Yakin walked around him for the goal, not good one on one
    Reid - Was he playing
    Keane - Expect a lot more, got into the game more in the 2nd
    Kilbane - Lacks technique at this level
    Duff - Played OK, maybe Murinho has a point

    Keane - A useless whinger who falls over a lot, one good game in 10
    Morrison - Good goal, can't shield the ball though
    I think that is spot on, but Duff and both Keanes and even Carr haven't played much yet this season.

    The most comical moment of the game was when Robbie Keane was standing arguing with Reid as Clinton Morrison was scoring! Robbie Keane also had some bizzarre dummies against Cyprus, the last one with no Irish player within 20 yards! He will go on to score 40 goals for Ireland but you always fel he isn't making the most of the talent he has.

    My problem with Duff is he rarely plays the early ball, he seems to feel he has to beat 3 players and then deliver a cross, he could learn a lot from Andy Reid who really has impressed me, I think Reid can become twice the player Duff is, he has vision and a football brain that Duff simply doesn't have.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    Nationalism is an infantile disease, the measles of mankind

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    First Team Superhoops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eirebhoy
    He'll probably play the holding role again. You said he was brought in because of his "ability to drive forward" and I was explaining why you didn't see him to that.
    and the same against the mighty Faroes?

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    Seasoned Pro thejollyrodger's Avatar
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    I cant see him playing against the faros islands

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    International Prospect tricky_colour's Avatar
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    Probably not the right thread but......

    Keane look pretty sharp for Man U against Bolton from what I saw
    on MOTH, he was third choice for MOM on the Man U site.
    Actually I just noticed he was voted MOM by season ticket holder
    (only 6 votes cast 4 for Roy) I think I would have voted him MOM
    on what I saw on TV.

    Also nice to see Andy, O'Brian getting a goal (I think he also had an
    own goal the last time he scored).

    The Chelsea boss says Duff will start(play?) on Tuesday.

    Andy Reid was the subject of much controversy when he 'bollocked'
    Forest left-back Andy Rodgers, resulting in some fans booing him.
    Big thread here if you have time to Reid it
    http://forum.nffc.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60076

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejollyrodger
    I cant see him playing against the faros islands
    Agree. Despite Brian Kerr's assurance that Keane was coming back on Kerr's terms, Roy will pick the games he will play in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davros
    THE BRAT WAS PISH! Shape up or Ship out!
    Arrogant & A Waste of space....Play or F*ck Up
    Are you going to apply the same rules to Robbie Keane/damien Duff/Steve Carr etc.

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    Seasoned Pro thejollyrodger's Avatar
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    Well Duff has obvious talent so it doesnt apply. Good to see he is starting in the line up for the european games.

    Robbie isnt playing to his 100% potentia. Maybe the new spurs coach can sort him out. Carr has a severe attitute problem, kick him out

    roy is only going to play 5 more games for ireland....

    France - away and home if needs me
    Swiss - home
    Israel - away and home if needs me

    So either we get to the world cup and everything is fine or we dont and its BYE BYE KEANO

    Thats the second goal O' brien has scored, i think the other one was for a corner, he is nearly as good as robbie

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    International Prospect Kingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky_colour
    Probably not the right thread but......

    Keane look pretty sharp for Man U against Bolton from what I saw
    on MOTH, he was third choice for MOM on the Man U site.
    Actually I just noticed he was voted MOM by season ticket holder
    (only 6 votes cast 4 for Roy) I think I would have voted him MOM
    on what I saw on TV.

    Also nice to see Andy, O'Brian getting a goal (I think he also had an
    own goal the last time he scored).

    The Chelsea boss says Duff will start(play?) on Tuesday.

    Andy Reid was the subject of much controversy when he 'bollocked'
    Forest left-back Andy Rodgers, resulting in some fans booing him.
    Big thread here if you have time to Reid it
    http://forum.nffc.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60076
    Christ that is some debate alright. Obviously the NFFC fans don't realise how lucky to still have Reidy. He was supposed to be allowed to leave during the Summer when he agreed to stay last Jan.
    Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!

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