QuoteLogically, it would seem to flow naturally, but it would surely be much more problematic than even the original proposal in practice.
Nobody is talking about that are they? But if we are talking about the man's right to have his opinions heard on the subject of the fate of a foetus, should it not apply in all cases?Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
And after the process, the mother is free to do as she chooses, of course.
Logically, it would seem to flow naturally, but it would surely be much more problematic than even the original proposal in practice.
Meanwhile, north of the border: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21601908
Is this necessary? Private clinics are still subject to the same rigours of the law as NHS clinics, no?Two Northern Ireland assembly members are attempting to change the law to make it illegal to perform an abortion outside the NHS.
The DUP's Paul Givan and the SDLP's Alban Maginness have unveiled a joint amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill.
They said they were confident it would win sufficient support to pass into law in Northern Ireland this year.
They added they were closing a loophole in the law that appeared with the opening of private clinic Marie Stopes.
The plan to amend the law, revealed to the BBC, comes after the opening of a private abortion and family planning clinic in Belfast last autumn.
Marie Stopes International has said it operates within the current law in Northern Ireland, which is different from the rest of the UK as it only allows for abortion when the mother's physical or mental health is in danger.
Mr Givan, who chairs the assembly's justice committee, said there are concerns it is not sufficiently regulated and the amendment would ensure that only the NHS could carry out abortions in Northern Ireland
"We're responding to the challenge that was presented when the Marie Stopes clinic opened in Northern Ireland and that revealed a loophole that private clinics are wholly unregulated, there's no form of accountability, no transparency," he said.
"Obviously on something as important as abortion, which is a criminal offence in Northern Ireland, we need to be satisfied that that issue is subject to the highest level of scrutiny.
"We believe the National Health Service is best placed to do that."
Mr Maginness said that if the amendment passed into law anyone carrying out an abortion outside the NHS could face a new sentence of up to 10 years in prison or a fine.
Another committee member, Ulster Unionist Tom Elliott, has also signed the amendment.
The amendment was tabled with the assembly's bills office on Wednesday morning.
The Criminal Justice Bill is due for its "further consideration" stage on Tuesday when the amendment will be debated.
In a joint statement they said they had grave concerns about the ability of a private clinic such as Marie Stopes to carry out abortion procedures without "any form of transparency, oversight or accountability".
Also, it is interesting that Sinn Féin appears to take a more liberal/progressive stance on abortion south of the border, but favours the conservative approach of greater and tighter regulation in the north: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20522474
Actually, just seeing the following story relating to Sinn Féin's stance: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21611096
Sinn Fein says it opposes a plan to amend Northern Ireland's law and stop abortions performed outside the NHS.
Caitriona Ruane said the move by the DUP's Paul Givan and the SDLP's Alban Maginness was an attempt to restrict a woman's right to obtain a termination in life-threatening circumstances.
The amendment to the criminal justice bill will be debated and voted on in the NI Assembly next Tuesday.
But Sinn Fein has not said if it will attempt to block the change.
Did anyone catch Miriam O'Callaghan's cringeworthy Prime Time interview with Praveen Halappanavar the other night? Talk about an obvious and repetitious string of questions. Not to mention:
"...And, do you still love us as a nation?" (With puppy-dog eyes crying insecurity and begging, "Please, Praveen, say 'yes'!...")
(Thankfully, he does still love us. International reputation not in tatters. Phew!)
Given talk up-thread of possible rights of the father-to-be, as well as the "protection of life" tack of the proposed Irish legislation, I thought this an interesting perspective on matters: http://judecollinsjournalist.blogspo...-thoughts.html
The thing is, what would happen if the unborn child’s father was a suicide risk? If the mother of the unborn child can have suicidal thoughts, isn’t it possible the father of the unborn child could equally have thoughts of suicide? With the only way of resolving these thoughts being the abortion of the foetus? Or can a man only think in positive terms of his unborn child, so there’s no need to make provision for any male who might have suicidal thoughts at the prospect of becoming a father?
I don't really see why that's interesting. Perinatal depression is specifically related to the bodily changes a woman undergoes during pregnancy, so in theory the end of the pregnancy could be the 'solution.' Those bodily changes don't exist in men - if he's depressed he's depressed, and that might be exacerbated by anxiety over an incoming child, etc., but it's much more easily treatable by conventional psychiatry.
I'm not really surprised that there are men who are determined to make this issue more about themselves though. I await John Waters' musings on the subject in the coming months.
This is certainly interesting, at the recent pro-life rally in Dublin. I'd be interested to hear the excuse of the Garda that arrested this young fella.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Rumours, no idea how credible, that he was subsequently pepper-sprayed in custody.
I've heard that too. Sprayed in the mouth and in the eyes when they put him into the van.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Could I be wrong in thinking the lad was a bit drunk or stoned? Also what was he doing there?
Just a little on the suicide issue, I don't believe it's going to be some sort of open door for wholscale abortion, though I have tried to understand it and failed, one part of it anyway. Now someone can correct me, but if a woman speaks about suicide or is deemed mentally deficit, an abortion can be sanctioned. I think I'm totally wrong, but I have also tried to research it via commentary.
On the issue of men's rights regarding their children, they don't exist. Zero.
So what?
I love the way half the country turns up for an abortion rally, but they all stay in their beds when it comes to the pillaging of the country. This country is trully forked in the head.
They don't like Bathory I'd say.
Roddy Collins, the biggest <insert as appropiate> in Irish Football.
It's because the church is silent on the pillaging of the country. They don't whip up the morons into a frenzy about it, and so nobody counterprotests the morons, and it all gets generally swept under the carpet.
Also, anti-bank-bailout movements aren't generally known for the obscene amounts of funding arriving from the US. Although I'm actually fairly happy that the money of christian fundamentalists in the States is flowing out of their pockets and into the pockets of Irish advertisers and bus companies, stimulating our economy. Every cloud and all that.
I'm just surprised there are that many people still taking part in organised religion in this country. "Worshipping" at home or perhaps even with friends I can accept (despite thinking the whole thing is just mad latter-day L. Ron Hubbard uggah-boogah nonsense), but to continue to align themselves with the likes of the catholic church with the sea of evidence against them is way out beyond mad, and into funny jacket territory. Do these people get all their news from the pulpit? Don't they open a newspaper, watch the news, or listen to the radio? Do they all just go to mass, listen to Colm & Jim Jim (vomit) and watch reality TV, is that the limit of their existence?
I find that most people seem to believe that if a priest says something, then it has to be true.
This is especially apparent in this whole abortion legislation craic.
I was at a counter demonstration in Donegal. (Take into account, Donegal is practically still in the stone age here) There was a pro-life march in Letterkenny, led by what we were told was the bishop here, but what actually turned out to be about 30 priests (I kid you not), from all over Donegal. There was (supposedly) over 1,000 people there, even though we reckoned it was in around 300-400. There were 30 of us standing there with pro choice flyers, posters, placards, what have you.
The dirty looks we got from priests, the names we were called, the vile abuse we got, from these people who are supposedly 'Gods messengers', it was disgraceful and disgusting. The people duly obliged and followed with similar crap.
We stayed and listened to a few of the things they had to say, and a lot of it was sickening lies that they were passing off as facts.
The group I was with had leaflets and flyers printed out with the truths and studies done on abortion legislation in the UK, and were handing them out to the pro-life people. They glanced at them, and then threw strops about the 'lies' on them.
Never in my life have I been so disappointed in humanity as a whole. The catholic church still has a massive hold on this country whether we like it or not.
Besides, there was one thing well worth laughing about, my 7 month pregnant girlfriend, leading chants, when one guy comes up and accuses her of being a baby killer, and 'pro suicide'. This was about 5 minutes after a young girl joined in our protest and chants, while holding a pro-life banner. When quizzed about it, she simply said "what's pro-choice?"
Overall, it was a fruitful day, a learning experience. Something I don't think I'll forget in a hurry.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
So you went to counter a pro life demo, got called names and a few dirty looks then went home for a cry on foot.ie.
I don't see the point of what you did as those going to a pro life demo would have very strong views on it and won't change their mind because of a few leaflets and chants. To me it seems you went to provoke them so what did you expect? There's nothing to be disappointed about people having conservative catholic views as a liberal you should respect their views surley?
Just to be clear, I don't mean to turn this into a "male issue" at the expense of the concerns of the mother-to-be at all; I just thought the possibility or threat of male suicide an interesting facet worth considering. The aim of the proposed legislation is to "protect human life during pregnancy" and it goes on to state:
The risk to life is not dependent on perinatal depression or any specific condition or disorder other than the threat of suicide. Whilst resulting male depression, anxiety or suicidal ideation may theoretically be much more easily treatable by conventional psychiatry, that doesn't necessarily mean it will always be practically treatable by such. Suicide remains a real issue in spite of the existence of theoretical "solutions" or treatment there to assist those feeling suicidal. In theory, if the risk to the life of a father-to-be is real and substantial, should it matter that it's not as a result of bodily changes experienced or undergone during a pregnancy?Risk of loss of life from suicide
9. (1) It shall be lawful to carry out a medical procedure in respect of a pregnant woman in accordance with this section in the course of which, or as a result of which, an unborn human life is ended where—
(a) the medical procedure is carried out by an obstetrician at an appropriate institution, and
(b) subject to section 19, three medical practitioners, having examined the pregnant woman, have jointly certified in good faith that—
(i) there is a real and substantial risk of loss of the woman’s life by way of suicide, and
(ii) in their reasonable opinion, that risk can only be averted by carrying out that medical procedure.
Personally, I still am of the belief that the mother-to-be should possess full bodily autonomy, but I feel the language and purported aim of the proposed legislation raises interesting logical questions in so far as the emphasis is on the protection of human life rather than any right to full bodily autonomy of the mother-to-be.
Surely he had a right to be there (and challenge the prevailing spirit of the demo) just like any other law-abiding citizen in the vicinity? It's not apparent that he broke any law by being there. Rather, it appears he was the victim of (unlawful?) aggression.
Not to defend the behaviour of the Church and its agents, but that's a bit of a characterisation; I'm sure there are at least some people out there who are well-learned and can think for themselves but might have the audacity to possess outlooks on life that differ from your own...
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 08/07/2013 at 9:54 AM.
Because you're famously thick-skinned and don't mind being called names at all, I'm sure. You saint, you.
There is everything to be disappointed about people having conservative catholic views, because conservative catholic views are profoundly idiotic. Just because liberals accept the right of people to hold these views doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.
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