N. Ireland Support last night

[Plastic Paddy]

Fao. PP ma brother was a wee put out for you telling him off when he said Tiocfaidh Ar La to ya as ya were leaving for Shepards Bush and the second part of the drenk
He says fair play to Dav though who returned the cry

Well Liam, I'd do it again, and if it ever comes up in conversation with your brother, I'll happily explain why. Whilst plenty of us hereabouts wish to see a reunited Ireland, it's just not going to happen when empty rhetoric rather than debate is the order of the day. Whilst it makes themselves feel good, the likes of Dav and your brother giving it the whole Chucky thing does nothing to advance the republican case and thus the likelihood of us ever seeing a 32-county state. And frankly obnoxious and offensive posts like the one earlier in this thread by WeAreConfused set the cause back rather than do anything to help matters.

Face facts here. How do you expect us to make the case for reunification to northern unionists when what they see and hear is a load of bombast and ersatz triumphalism instead? It ain't gonna happen, and it's no wonder Lux and his ilk take offence/switch off when it's all they hear from us. A little growing up is needed here. And that means cutting the crap.

Anyway, rant over. Back to talking football.

PP

[Duncan Gardner]

Well said PP

I am looking forward to the next international week- we're taking 70 on a package tour to Baku, so the noise level might be a wee bit less?

If the tiptoe up the FIFA ranking/ group table, I think we need England and Poland to take the points against Wales. Your game in Paris should be interesting- which TV channels are showing it?

[lopez]

Face facts here. How do you expect us to make the case for reunification to northern unionists when what they see and hear is a load of bombast and ersatz triumphalism instead? It ain't gonna happen, and it's no wonder Lux and his ilk take offence/switch off when it's all they hear from us.

Sorry, amigo, but Northern nationalists walked around for fifty years with 'welcome home' on their foreheads and it did f*ck all use.

If anyone is going to judge a nation on the antics of two or three sh*te stirrers, then they can take offence and switch off to their hearts content. Unilke other footie websites I can mention, at least we don't all club together do give someone a cyber stomping and when that fails, go running to Marty to get the person banned.

Personally, reading some of Lux's ramblings suggests he too has escaped the nut-house into the back of Dr. Emmett Brown's de Lorean, this time when the Doc passed through Portadown in 1641. Listening to his own picture of 'dine sithe', I was expecting my recent visit to Dublin to be something akin's to Bill Rammell's current junket to the People's Paradise of Korea. Better not mention the number of unionists that have emmigrated to the Republic (not including the ones that take advantage of its universties) nor the fact that they can vote in all elections and still retain British citizenship (as the Irish can in Britain), nor that British Unionism in the Republic is effectively dead despite having more British citizens living there now than in 1922.

The case of not being able to wear a Glens shirt in Dublin is a clear indicator of his world -view, and possibly his sanity. And the chopping and changing of his 'nationality', whenever it is needed to score a point, is another.

[Duncan Gardner]

A little harsh there, Senor. I'm sure PP was just calming the situation. That fake tache and Scouse accent go well on him

No-one judges the Republic of Ireland- or even foot.ie as a whole- from the ramblings of two or three ****-stirrers. But other readers might reasonably expect the ****-stirring to be deleted or eidted out when it's too personal or goes over the top. Quite often it ain't.

Anyway, if ye're going to Paris, bon voyage

<lunch>

[lopez]

A little harsh there, Senor. I'm sure PP was just calming the situation. That fake tache and Scouse accent go well on him

Okay. A bit too much keyboard therapy here from me. Apologies. However, while your good self has always sought to argue credibly - despite the obvious fat-tist interventions from the Hood, whom I have personally had words with, but whom argues that you two have a kind of Statler and Waldorf style 'love-hate' relationship - Lux comes up with the narrow minded fantasy and morphisation that WAR and Davros - and perhaps myself if I was honest - thrive on.

[Plastic Paddy]

Sorry, amigo, but Northern nationalists walked around for fifty years with 'welcome home' on their foreheads and it did f*ck all use.

Indeed Señor, but there's also a case for saying "that was then, this is now". I'm not for a minute saying that we shouldn't forget our history, for to do so would be folly, but that by the same token we shouldn't let it blind us to the future; something we Irish of all persuasions are all too capable of doing. In any case, the political stakes are simply too high to allow anything like a return to the situation you allude to. Watch for Bliar and Bortie's pronouncements from Leeds Castle this coming Thursday to that end.

The case of not being able to wear a Glens shirt in Dublin is a clear indicator of his world -view, and possibly his sanity. And the chopping and changing of his 'nationality', whenever it is needed to score a point, is another.

Personally, I hope if Lux ever does wear his Glens shirt in Dublin, he's good enough to come on here and tell us how pleasantly surprised he is a) to be still alive and b) completely ignored by all but those who wanted to know whose kit he's sporting. And as for your second point here, the man clearly feels Irish and British. No problem there and no dichotomy either. I just wish that more of his "community" could come out and say that they're Irish as well as British too. Then we could all get down (uh-huh!) to the slow business of building a shared identity and future together.

Lux comes up with the narrow minded fantasy and morphisation that WAR and Davros - and perhaps myself if I was honest - thrive on.

It's all to easy to be reactionary, but as my mother would say (albeit in a heavy Sligo accent), "don't sink to their level". We can all be each other's demons here if we work hard enough, but it's a much more pleasant place when we don't go trying.

PP

PS Dav - if you're reading this - I do still love you, you know. It's just that I know that you're better than some of the drivel that you write here in your "weaker" moments. My advice is not to post after midnight, when it's a fair cert that you're at least three sheets to the wind...

[gspain]

Personally, I hope if Lux ever does wear his Glens shirt in Dublin, he's good enough to come on here and tell us how pleasantly surprised he is a) to be still alive and b) completely ignored by all but those who wanted to know whose kit he's sporting. And as for your second point here, the man clearly feels Irish and British. No problem there and no dichotomy either. I just wish that more of his "community" could come out and say that they're Irish as well as British too. Then we could all get down (uh-huh!) to the slow business of building a shared identity and future together.

While I agree there would be no problem wearing a Glens shirt in Dublin - it would be for the following reasons

1) Nobody would know what it was.

2) Even if some did - an RTE news report from May 1983 showed the Irish Cup final with red/white/blue Bluemen fighting green shirted Glenman. Many people here still assume the Blues v Glens rivalry is along sectarian lines.

Up until recently I would have said there would be no problem walking around Dublin in a Rangers shirt (again Linfield may not be recognizable) - I don't believe this anymore. Furthermore you used to see Rangers tops around in the late 80's/early 90's - Galway, Grafton street and in Ballybunion that I remember. Despite the reversals in the 2 team's fortunes it is not enough to explain the absence of any recently - has anyone else seen any?

I actually think it would make a good story. Walk down Grafton street, go to a shopping centre and attend an EL game in a Rangers shirt and interview some people who react.

[nlgbbbblth]

. Furthermore you used to see Rangers tops around in the late 80's/early 90's - Galway, Grafton street and in Ballybunion that I remember. Despite the reversals in the 2 team's fortunes it is not enough to explain the absence of any recently - has anyone else seen any?

could have been people on their holidays

I know a girl from Kerry who has a Rangers top though - now lives in Dublin.

[lopez]

Up until recently I would have said there would be no problem walking around Dublin in a Rangers shirt (again Linfield may not be recognizable) - I don't believe this anymore.

On my recent visit to Dub-yang, I didn't see any of the shirts you mentioned, although I think if Lux had said he couldn't wear his Gers shirt I'd have more sympathy. But what about Eng-er-land? Bit more of a dodgy shirt than Govan's finest given the events of February 1995 and who do I see walking into my hotel but a mister and missus with the three moggys shirt. Perhaps wearing these garments in enemy territory is a risk worth taking in case anyone mistook them for foreigners, but looking at the absence of bruises and spit, a peaceful evening was had nevertheless.

Anyway, I saw a Crues shirt in Killarney and I too was trying discreetly to get near it to see what it was.

PP: Agree with everything about the little buddha. His stirring hardly helps things and you're right, he's better than the cr*p he sometimes writes. Unfortunately, I don't know what the good people of Enniskillen done to him, because the O6C certainly sends him loco. As for the national question, yes the right to dual-citizenship - or even just British - within Ireland is something I agree with, along with autonomy for the 6C (or 4C, or 3C) within the Irish state. Nearly a million Irish have managed to live in Britain without giving up all of their nationality, or trying to annex part of the country. However Lux changes his nationality at a whim to suit his arguments instead of being honest about what his true allegiance is. Which is to me, being a part of a planter community - not unlike the pied noir of Algeria - that owes its existence solely to the threat of force against the democratic wishes of the Irish population that Lux claims to be part of. His latest statement about 'Ivory Coast flags' to add to Irish being a dead language and Mary McAleese being a 'Brit' is indicative of someone whose Irishness - like my 'Britishness' - is purely a matter of where they were born and not who they are. If this statement offends him, tough.

As for NI fans, saw them at their game with Spain last year, and I wanted to film them to show the suits, etc. how to behave at a football game. Unlike my previous visits, they've dispensed with that song about Aughrim and the Boyne.

[lopez]

...Suffice to say in these dark old days,the 'democracy' DG & LI subcribe to was hardly rampant in the osc.

Oh, I beg to differ, amigo. 'Democracy' was never a problem in the O6C. Turning every election - from Westminster to the parish council - into a vote over religious supremacy was. I wouldn't argue with Israel (or ZOP) proper being 'Democratic' but there is a proportion of the population that is disenfranchised despite having the vote. As for the West Bank, I can't see those people being allowed to return anyone to the Knesset unless they become outnumbered by the Brooklyn boys. Then again, maybe one.

But I digress. The upshot of the Stormont years was a whole swathe of people with outside khasis voting for Tories by another name.

[Lionel Ritchie]

While I agree there would be no problem wearing a Glens shirt in Dublin - it would be for the following reasons

1) Nobody would know what it was.

2) Even if some did - an RTE news report from May 1983 showed the Irish Cup final with red/white/blue Bluemen fighting green shirted Glenman. Many people here still assume the Blues v Glens rivalry is along sectarian lines.

Up until recently I would have said there would be no problem walking around Dublin in a Rangers shirt (again Linfield may not be recognizable) - I don't believe this anymore. Furthermore you used to see Rangers tops around in the late 80's/early 90's - Galway, Grafton street and in Ballybunion that I remember. Despite the reversals in the 2 team's fortunes it is not enough to explain the absence of any recently - has anyone else seen any?

I actually think it would make a good story. Walk down Grafton street, go to a shopping centre and attend an EL game in a Rangers shirt and interview some people who react.

myself and a journalist friend discussed doing exactly this some time ago. It was after i told him a story of being in a club in Limerick -Termites (alternative/indie) when it used be on in the now shut savoy. Wasn't a very busy night for a saturday and you couldn't help but notice a guy of about 19 or 20 in a white Rangers away shirt.
there's always the risk of exaggerating when it comes to these things but i remember thinking at the time if he was in any other club in Limerick he might have gotten hassle. maybe only verbal abuse, maybe worse who knows.

the kid was a bit wasted though and I did certainly think I should've told him to be careful if visiting fast food places on the way home, where pretty much like all irish urban centers, the trouble is likely to flare up.

There used be an unofficial Rangers supporters club who met out in the south court to watch matches i believe. I'm told they're ex-pat scots working in raheen and the like.

[lopez]

There used be an unofficial Rangers supporters club who met out in the south court to watch matches i believe. I'm told they're ex-pat scots working in raheen and the like.

There's a Dublin Rangers supporters club although I think there are some local members. I think they (used to) meet in a Gay bar and that they had some polo shirts done up with a tricolour on them which may have gone down as bad at Ibrox than a 'gers shirt in O'Connell Street.

Certainly I think 'gers support is greater than one would expect in the south and I think many of these locals find no conflict supporting the Irish side. I used to work with a Dub son of a CofI cleric in the mid eighties - PP knew him - who supported them passively (ie. whenever Celtic was brought up).

[gspain]

The Dublin Loyal RSC can be found at

http://members.lycos.co.uk/dublinrangers/

They use the Dublin crest and have a website in Irish too but I don't think they use the tricolour.

I don't know any of them but there have been a few articles about them in the papers.

Brian Kerr is a Rangers fan as have all his family going way back. Alan Maybury also although I assume his loyalties now are to the Jambos.

I know of at least one Rangers fan who travels to a large number of our away games and most Ireland home games. I know of another who regularly attends home games and has travelled away occasionally.

Another Linfield/Rangers fan I used to know in Dublin had a number of car stickers etc proclaiming his joint loyalties until he got the windows put in after a Rovers game in Milltown. He used to travel up to all the big European nights at Windsor with a carload from Dublin.

I also know of a number of southern protestants who who do not support Rangers but their favourite cross channel club is anything from Liverpool, Man Utd, Sheff Wed or Chelsea. They would all identify with Ireland as their national team.

The RoI is approx 93% Catholic but that still leaves a sizable minority of other religions and I would never like to see the day when they are not welcome supporting our national team.

I am aware of an East Donegal Northern Ireland SC but I don't know of anyone from the RoI who doesn't support us on ground sof religion or lack of identity.

[lopez]

I've nothing against the Donegal NISC supporting the North. Hardly glory hunters.

I agree with what you are saying about the Irish team. One of the (pleasantly) surprising things I've witnessed at the last two Irish games I was at were the increase in blacks in Ireland shirts, following the lads. Long may it continue.

I don't think that the wearing of Celtic shirts is necessarily sectarian at an Ireland game - as you mentioned in the thread about the rugby shirt - but following Ireland is for everyone living in the 26C and many millions outside it's de jure boundary that are Irish, despite their club, religious or political allegiances. I would agree that Irish Rangers fans are hardly feeling welcome at the moment, even though - as you point out - the manager is one.

[lopez]

Have met a couple of African fellas,plus there's 2-3 mixed-race lads I see irregularly,Dubs I think......this who you mean?Btw,' blacks'

I've always seen mixed-race lads at Irish games but these have always had one Irish parent. First one I remember was Malta '83 of whom he and his mate - both Londoners - kindly lent me a night at their pad while my flatmates took in two nice Manchester 'ladies' for a night of heavy Ugandan discussions. However when I mean 'black' in this case, I mean of purely African descent with no Irish parentage, although born or have grown up in Ireland with Irish citizenship. This is the changing face of Ireland.

[gspain]

I've nothing against the Donegal NISC supporting the North. Hardly glory hunters.

I agree with what you are saying about the Irish team. One of the (pleasantly) surprising things I've witnessed at the last two Irish games I was at were the increase in blacks in Ireland shirts, following the lads. Long may it continue.

I don't think that the wearing of Celtic shirts is necessarily sectarian at an Ireland game - as you mentioned in the thread about the rugby shirt - but following Ireland is for everyone living in the 26C and many millions outside it's de jure boundary that are Irish, despite their club, religious or political allegiances. I would agree that Irish Rangers fans are hardly feeling welcome at the moment, even though - as you point out - the manager is one.

I'm just disappointed the East Donegal lads don't feel part of the country they were born in.

Yes noticed a few people of colour (whatever the PC term is) in Basle - great to see. there were some comments during USA 94 along the lines of the Ireland fans must be racist as despite having black players none of the blacks in Ireland chose to follow the team. Maybe there is another Gullit or Zidane growing up in Dublin today.

I don't see Celtic shirts are Irish games as being sectarian and I appreciate they would be the club of choice for the Irish diaspora (I would hope that Shels, Cork or Limerick would be the choice for those of us at home) however it can give off a sectarian image. I've been to 5 Irish games away to NI (3 senior, B and youths) and would naturally be wary of the guys in Rangers shirts

[lopez]

I'm just disappointed the East Donegal lads don't feel part of the country they were born in.

I don't see Celtic shirts are Irish games as being sectarian and I appreciate they would be the club of choice for the Irish diaspora (I would hope that Shels, Cork or Limerick would be the choice for those of us at home) however it can give off a sectarian image. I've been to 5 Irish games away to NI (3 senior, B and youths) and would naturally be wary of the guys in Rangers shirts

I too would be wary of NI fans in Rangers shirts. Also, as can be seen by the poor attendance when we met the North in 1999 at Lansdowne Road at the same time as the Scottish Cup final, it shows where many people's priorities lie.

While we all want Protestants born within the state to follow Ireland, I can understand why a section of East Donegal Protestants follow the North. Historically they were 'sold out' twice by their own politicians. Firstly along with all Southern Unionists when the likes of Carson, Craig etc accepted partition and secondly through the stitch-up known as the Boundary Commission. Therefore they are ethnically no less British than their couinterparts within the O6C.

However no one has said that they are NOT also supporters of the Republic. According to one website of theirs they follow Finn Harps along with Rangers - not Linfield or Glentoran - and I presume Belfast is easier to get to aswell as more welcoming for them without the Celtic tops. Also, depsite what Davros suggests, most Irish people have or would support the North if the sectarianism of their support was removed. This, despite efforts, has not been achieved, because fans are still walking in with scarves depicting the Dutch homosexual on his horse, while the flag of the indigenous community, which would have once got you a night's stay courtesy of the RUC, would still land you with a slap if you brought that it.

Would you object to Protestants from East Donegal carrying the Fitzgerald saltire (aka the St Patrick's Cross) to an Ireland game if they were fully behind the team? I wouldn't. I would have thought that those 'Ivory Coast flags' that Lux mentions would be a problem at Windsor Park if they were used to support the opposition.

No doubt we'll get some old drivel about 'a foreign flag', blah, blah, blah, 'articles 2 & 3', blah, blah, blah, 'can't wear my glens shirt in Dublin', despite this argument being a fallacy with the number of French tricolours being used amongst the home support with the IFA crest in the middle. And I thought they played in Green.

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

Rangers shirts are rare in Ireland. People are not brave enough to wear them. I can't blame them, considering the appearance of most Celtic-jersey-wearing nut-jobs in this country.
I do however know a well-established League of Ireland player who wears his Rangers jersey. Think he does it just to be different.

[Donal81]

"you lot stopping booing Rangers players and we'll stop booing Celtic players"

NI supporter at work today

Why don't you just stop booing Celtic players and don't see the fact that mindless Irish scum boo Rangers players as an excuse? I see your point, I went to see Ireland play Georgia in Lansdowne last year, sitting in the bucket seats, and the crowd booed whatever Georgian happened to be playing for Rangers. My mate who I went with started booing as well. I told him to shut the f*ck up as he was embarrassing me and giving decent supporters a bad reputation so he did. Just because ignorant clowns down here boo Rangers players, that doesn't mean you should be booing Celtic players, you become a soccer lout just like the idiots down here. If that's what you want to be, fine.

[nlgbbbblth]

Why don't you just stop booing Celtic players and don't see the fact that mindless Irish scum boo Rangers players as an excuse? I see your point, I went to see Ireland play Georgia in Lansdowne last year, sitting in the bucket seats, and the crowd booed whatever Georgian happened to be playing for Rangers. My mate who I went with started booing as well. I told him to shut the f*ck up as he was embarrassing me and giving decent supporters a bad reputation so he did. Just because ignorant clowns down here boo Rangers players, that doesn't mean you should be booing Celtic players, you become a soccer lout just like the idiots down here. If that's what you want to be, fine.

I agree with you
Presume you realise I was quoting someone else
I'll pass on your thoughts to him though