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Thread: The Return of Fianna Fáil

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    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    Or not at all and thell the tools to go back to their hovels and discuss Redmond Home-rule.
    That's something I'm pretty conflicted about. I hate British Imperialism equally as much as I hate De Valera dancing-at-the-crossroads-until-you-get-knocked-up-then-it's-slave-labour-for-you Rome Rule ultraconservative Ireland. We probably would have been better off if the Bantry landings had succeeded and we'd ended up ruled from Paris!

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    That's something I'm pretty conflicted about. I hate British Imperialism equally as much as I hate De Valera dancing-at-the-crossroads-until-you-get-knocked-up-then-it's-slave-labour-for-you Rome Rule ultraconservative Ireland.
    De Valera's attempt to portray and realise the new Ireland as Catholic and rural was a reaction or in cultural rebellion to the notion of Britain, the former master, as Protestant and urban/industrial. Not that I have any time for such sentiment either, mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    It's this statement that is the most frightening.

    Whilst it was very possible FG may have abandoned their Cavan-like approach to spending cash, they didn't and FF did. We can't admonish FG for the sins of FF simply because they may have done the same. That's insane.

    As the incumbent govt at the beginning of the Tiger years (Election 1997) they and Labour gave no indication that they'd go mental and it was this that ultimately cost them the election and with it the absolute misery in the last 5 years that a lot of people in this State have suffered.

    Actually you'r right, the crisis is FG and Labours fault for not winning the election in 1997! :P
    I think you're more than a bit mixed up there and inventing stuff I did not write. The coalition can be judged on what they have done while in power.

    Would FG have done any different in the 'tiger years'? is a question I have offered an opinion on. There's not a shed of evidence in their manifestos throughout all the time they were in opposition, that FG could have handled the debt frenzy and spiralling property prices, any differently.
    Re FG's 2002 manifesto, George Lee famously commented it was all 'jiggery pokery'.
    Fianna Fail were a train wreck but (imo) it's incidental that they were in charge and not FG.

  4. #24
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    I'd suggest that if anyone is under the impression that a FG led government would have acted differently in the so called 'tiger years', they are seriously deluded.
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    I'd suggest that if anyone is under the impression that a FG led government would have acted differently in the so called 'tiger years', they are seriously deluded.
    It's this statement that is the most frightening.

    Whilst it was very possible FG may have abandoned their Cavan-like approach to spending cash, they didn't and FF did. We can't admonish FG for the sins of FF simply because they may have done the same. That's insane.

    As the incumbent govt at the beginning of the Tiger years (Election 1997) they and Labour gave no indication that they'd go mental and it was this that ultimately cost them the election and with it the absolute misery in the last 5 years that a lot of people in this State have suffered.

    Actually you'r right, the crisis is FG and Labours fault for not winning the election in 1997! :P
    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    I think you're more than a bit mixed up there and inventing stuff I did not write. The coalition can be judged on what they have done while in power.
    That's quite an assertion to make when all I did was hold an opinion on the same hypothetical situation as you did. Only differing in that I didn't agree with you. The scenario didn't come to pass. It's irrelevant how "mixed-up" I could be in this parallel universe.

    Would FG have done any different in the 'tiger years'? is a question I have offered an opinion on.
    As did I.

    There's not a shed of evidence in their manifestos throughout all the time they were in opposition, that FG could have handled the debt frenzy and spiralling property prices, any differently.
    In the period 1997-2002 FG were in the doldrums as FF were just throwing money around like snuff at a wake. There was nothing really that FG or Labour could do but offer something pleasing to the electorate.

    The electorate would never have bought a political party trying to cool the boom. But likewise they were never gonna buy the idea of letting the property-party end and handing the reigns to someone else. Don't forget this was the year of the SSIA as well.

    Using election manifestos as evidence of what a party would do is a lesson in futility and insanity.

    You can do better than that?

    Re FG's 2002 manifesto, George Lee famously commented it was all 'jiggery pokery'.
    Fianna Fail were a train wreck but (imo) it's incidental that they were in charge and not FG.
    I don't see how it was incidental. A party containing Bertie, McCreevy, Cowen, Lawlor, Lendahand, Burke, Martin etc is incomparable to anything anyone else could come up with.

    Again, in reality FG-Labour in 1997 had kept the hand on the tiller and were steady as she goes. FF went the other way and opened the floodgates to the boom that we saw. How you could honestly say that FG-Labour would have suddenly started to spend cash like madmen is in contrast to what was actually happening at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    De Valera's attempt to portray and realise the new Ireland as Catholic and rural was a reaction or in cultural rebellion to the notion of Britain, the former master, as Protestant and urban/industrial. Not that I have any time for such sentiment either, mind.
    That's not entirely accurate, DI. I'd hold that Dev was just about the worst thing to happen to Irish politics in the twentieth century, but the creation of a middle class, educated Catholic elite was already under way in the Cumann na nGaedheal governments from 1922 (WT Cosgrave, Kevin O'Higgins, Michael Tierney, Eoin MacNeill, Desmond FitzGerald, Patrick Hogan etc). Also, FF saw that CnaG/FG had the large farmer/urban middle class vote sown up, and focussing on small farmers and shopkeepers was in keeping with Dev's corporatist view of the state. The cultural rebellion against anglicisation was over thirty years under way when FF was founded. All FF did - as they have done since - was drag their ar5es onto the nearest populist bandwagon, ba5tardise any ideology they found there, and wait till the wheels came off the wagon, whereupon they leave it for FG/LAb to try to fix with too few proper implements - after all, most of the tools are in FF, aren't they?

    This, from the Irish Times' letters page, is a neat summation of the cretinous nature of the common Irish voter:

    Sir, – Fianna Fáil’s rise in opinion polls at the expense of the Government parties is like blaming the fire brigade for getting your house wet while it burns and then going for a pint with the arsonist. (http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/in...#1224330207313 )
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir
    I'd suggest that if anyone is under the impression that a FG led government would have acted differently in the so called 'tiger years', they are seriously deluded.
    I said at the time of the last GE, the material difference between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael is that FG would implement the cuts ruthlessly. FG could do it better because that's their forte and they could always blame FF for the mess.
    Did anyone care what the FG election manifesto was in the noughties? Labour proposed an extra public holiday in their 2002 manifesto. Dick Spring was voted out of the Dail, and Ruairi Quinn resigned as leader.

    As absurd as the idea of FF screwing the country again in 3 years time is, it is the trend across Europe. Labour left behind them a trillion Euro deficit in the UK in 2010. Now they're the most popular party there. Sarkosy left the Elysee Palace with widespread unemployment, and the country on the brink of losing it's credit rating. Now his successor's approval rating has sunk. In Spain, the country was on the brink of the IMF, the Popular Party were duly re-elected, but the only thing popular now is the daily protests in Madrid, and Catalan rebels demanding independence. A convicted criminal was replaced in Italy by Monti. Now the convicted criminal could get back in power to screw the country even more. Greece held a number of elections last summer, and many more protests since.

    It's the economy, stupid. What is in the pocket forms opinion polls, and decides who gets marked on the ballot paper.

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    Thankfully we have , most likely, Labour-depending 3 years 'til our next general election.
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    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    Did anyone care what the FG election manifesto was in the noughties? Labour proposed an extra public holiday in their 2002 manifesto. Dick Spring was voted out of the Dail, and Ruairi Quinn resigned as leader.

    As absurd as the idea of FF screwing the country again in 3 years time is, it is the trend across Europe. Labour left behind them a trillion Euro deficit in the UK in 2010. Now they're the most popular party there. Sarkosy left the Elysee Palace with widespread unemployment, and the country on the brink of losing it's credit rating. Now his successor's approval rating has sunk. In Spain, the country was on the brink of the IMF, the Popular Party were duly re-elected, but the only thing popular now is the daily protests in Madrid, and Catalan rebels demanding independence. A convicted criminal was replaced in Italy by Monti. Now the convicted criminal could get back in power to screw the country even more. Greece held a number of elections last summer, and many more protests since.

    It's the economy, stupid. What is in the pocket forms opinion polls, and decides who gets marked on the ballot paper.
    Which is why I'm slowly drifting towards being some sort of monarchist. Electorates are idiots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    Which is why I'm slowly drifting towards being some sort of monarchist. Electorates are idiots.
    Dictatorship for me please!
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    Normal service resumed?

    FG 28%
    FF 26%
    SF 16%
    LAB 12%
    IND/IRRELEVANT 18%

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0223/369264-redc-sbp-poll/
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    Looks like many soft Labour voters have rejoined the troika party.

    Governments always insist they don't govern by opinion polls, but they don't ignore them. Enda had a heave against him when FG's opinion polls stagnated, Cowen had another when FF barely had double figures, and Gilmore may get one coming his way soon. 12% is even by Labour ratings, very poor.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Ah lads, would you not give FF a chance? They've obviously learned their lesson. They won't make the same mistakes again. Bunch of begrudgers in this country.

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    Reserves Sean South's Avatar
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    It dosen't really matter if it's FG or FF they are both as bad as each other. Two centre right parties with more or less the same policies. Can people not see this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean South View Post
    It dosen't really matter if it's FG or FF they are both as bad as each other. Two centre right parties with more or less the same policies. Can people not see this?
    What is the alternative? A leftist party? Do people really want that?

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    International Prospect bennocelt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keen2win View Post
    What is the alternative? A leftist party? Do people really want that?

    Tsk! No, more of the same please! (corruption)

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    Who would you vote for?

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    A reform party, one with the ball5 to say that we never created a republic in the proper meaning of the word. The kind of party that ignores the political spectrum (can be left on social issues, right on justice etc) and would have the gumption to tackle the manifest flaws of the public service and the private sector.

    In short, nobody right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    A reform party, one with the ball5 to say that we never created a republic in the proper meaning of the word. The kind of party that ignores the political spectrum (can be left on social issues, right on justice etc) and would have the gumption to tackle the manifest flaws of the public service and the private sector.

    In short, nobody right now.
    This is the biggest difficulty in Irish politics. An almost impossible dream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean South
    It dosen't really matter if it's FG or FF they are both as bad as each other. Two centre right parties with more or less the same policies. Can people not see this?
    FF cut, taxed, and set new records for incompetence in their last term. Compared to them, the current government are refreshing.

    There would be no €8.65 wage without them, no €188 weekly ja without them, PRSI would remain at 13%, we'd need another bailout, the bank guarantee would be guaranteed, borrowing costs would be at Italy/Spain levels, and the economy would not be so much on the floor, as deep underground.

    Before the last CP agreement Doran of the INMO played his hand to everyone who would listen to him. Then he took his ball home at half time protesting at the referee, and is now left with egg on his face. I have little sympathy for those who played the "not an inch" card. If they really can't stomach losing 15 minutes an hour of premium payments, they can go to the airport, trot around Australia and New Zealand, and see how hard it is to live on only €27k pa, like thousands from this country have had to do every week for the past 4 years.
    Last edited by mypost; 05/03/2013 at 1:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keen2win View Post
    Who would you vote for?
    SF, Independents or that new party thats forming at the moment -the one the plumber set up! (Direct Democracy or something)

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