QuoteCould be argued that with one of the best paid international managers we havent even looked close to winning anything (as in trophies)Originally Posted by mypost
mypost, I don't mean to nit pick, but we beat Estonia home and away in qualification for WC2002. Kinsella and Breen scored in Dublin, Dunne and Holland in Tallinn
Could be argued that with one of the best paid international managers we havent even looked close to winning anything (as in trophies)
Simply not true. We started all four games at USA 94 with a lone striker. Look it up.
The great Tommy Coyne was first choice was he not?
First choice because Big Niall was sequestered with a back injury, which he now claims shouldn't have kept him out of the team. We can now see Quinn's forced exclusion as a desperate and cynical ploy by the Italians to prevent us from imposing our mastery of the 4-4-2 upon their puny brand of calcio.
That's the exactly sort of defeatist negative talk that Trap comes out with, blaming the players and giving up against big teams before we even square up to them (his comments after Euros and Germany). I'm used to Irish teams showing a bit more spirit and having a go against every opposition, whether ranked 1 or 100.
I've no problem with us losing to magnificent teams like Spain and Germany, but I do have a problem with the negligence in not using the bench v Austria and in Trap's defeatist attitude v big teams. It's not what Ireland is about.
So he reacted too late and in the wrong way, that's great. And any Italian manager worth his salt would make a 3rd substitution in stoppage time at 2-1 to waste a minute.
Patently not true.
Patently not true.
Hmm, for every 'good' point mp makes, he seems to make about 4 bad ones...
The one which I will respond to is Trap's record. Yes, it is good in terms of not losing. Ecellent even. But that can and will only ever achieve so much.
But it is poor in conceding draws and shocking in converting leads into victories whilst all but the biggest die-hard will admit that's it's likewatching paint dry at times...
Not just that;would rather take the slight risk of winning games, with the slight chance of losing the odd one. We might even accumulate a higher aggregate and the spectacle could only be more appealing?
I vaguely remember us winning the Celtic Cup.Could be argued that with one of the best paid international managers we havent even looked close to winning anything (as in trophies)
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
A forgettable match but an unforgettable memory of an all important cosy away win in 2001.
But Trap's away record is indeed above par.
So what are we about then? The moral victory I guess. How many points does it get, tournaments, trophies even?
He isn't defeatist, he is realistic. Outpassing the Germans and Spanish is not possible. Outplaying them with our resources compared to theirs is not doable. So we must have a system which we have, a formation which we have, and a gameplan which usually gets the result we need. You might want us to have a go, but Italians want to get a result. You "have a go" on PS2, you don't "have a go" in top level football, when you need a result with your job on the line.
And any continental ref is within his rights to add on the minute wasted if he wishes.And any Italian manager worth his salt would make a 3rd substitution in stoppage time at 2-1 to waste a minute.
We had 3 minutes to hold out against a side who offered lots of possession but few attempts on goal. So they got Alaba to try his luck 20 yards out with a minute left. And it still needed a deflection to go in.
Finland drew 1-1 in Spain a couple of months ago. Sweden drew in Germany. I don't see why we should accept 4/5 goal defeats as an inevitability. When Spain won the World Cup, they didn't win every game 4-0 - Switzerland beat them, and Chile, Paraguay and even Honduras gave them a tougher test than we did in Gdansk.
Wins against Georgia, Cyprus, Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia are all good and commendable, but taken for what they are, they don't offer much of a validation for such a high-profile coach, who is extravagantly paid to get the best and more out of our resources. The only justification for playing this style of football would be if we were genuinely over-achieving. You may think we are, we'll have to agree to differ. I think that if we actually got our best team on the field on a consistent basis, results and performances would be better. An Irish team with Whelan in the centre, Sammon up front, and a striker on the wing is clearly not the best Irish XI.
We were close to having that 'ideal' team against Sweden, with Keane dropping deep, and we played well and got a point. Then Trapattoni reverted to type for the Austria game, made a daft selectorial decision in replacing Keane with Sammon instead of Hoolahan, and we went back to long-ball and an undermanned midfield. We were outplayed, and dropped two points. At home. The manager has to carry the can for that, just as much as we should commend him for grinding out wins against the 'banana-skin' sides.
Finland got a point in Spain. Georgia almost got another in an earlier qualifier. You can be assured, that it didn't come from "having a go". It came from having a gameplan, and carrying it out. That's what has to be done, and what we do too.
A group is a 10 game campaign, not a glamour game series. The above wins are not merely "good and commendable", they're essential, and without them there would be no playoffs or finals. That's why Finland nor Georgia won't qualify for the World Cup, and why we are in the hunt for further progress from our group in this campaign.
To be fair, Northern Ireland keep on beating the likes of Spain and England in one-off performances. It doesn't mean I'd replace our players, manager, tactics, or general international record with theirs!
Yes, I agree that these wins over Armenia, Estonia etc are essential, but achieving those results is not 'outstanding', as you claim. It is a basic requirement at this level. There is no excuse for a team made up mostly of proven EPL players to drop points to sides made up of players from third-rate European teams. Estonia have current full internationals playing for York City, Motherwell and Sillamae Kalev - beating them 4-0 with a two-man advantage isn't exactly a cause for hailing Trapattoni as a miracle worker. Armenia's team, aside from Mkhitaryan, is made up mostly of home-based players and journeymen from the Kazakh and Iranian leagues. Yet Estonia and Armenia - two countries with even smaller populations than our own - are the most high-profile teams we've beaten under Trap.
I don't want to go on the anti-Trap witch-hunt bandwagon, and I am aware that the search for a replacement is fraught with danger, but I'm frustrated with the 'one step forward, two steps back' pattern under his reign. We played some great stuff away to Montenegro in '08, France in '09, and Sweden this year, when Trapattoni picked the best players and allowed them to play. However, instead of taking the positives and building on these encouraging performances, we have invariably reverted to the crude hoofball and bizarre selections which resulted in inept performances in crucial home games against Bulgaria, Slovakia and Austria. We could have paid dearly for that draw with Slovakia, and we will, I fear, pay dearly for that result against the Austrians. It has the whiff of Brian Kerr and Israel all over again.
So what if their players play for York City and Iran? We had to face those teams and get the better of them, which we did. Plenty of previous Irish coaches have failed to do so in the past, and plenty will in the future. Maybe the results themselves aren't outstanding, but the consistency of them most certainly is.
The neighbours couldn't deal with Estonia in the very same campaign, and didn't qualify. They then changed coach, who still can't get the better of Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, or anyone else for that matter these days. That's what happens when gameplans, systems, and organisation are sacrificed for "having a go". So they won't be going to Brazil either.
Under Trap, we haven't paid dearly for any result he's got us long term. Austria have 3 away games left and may pay dearly for not winning in Astana, while the "value" of Sweden's point in Germany has been thrown in the bin after their results since. So we're all level with 4 games to go, and we're neither in nor out of it yet.
But surely you can see why I would be concerned? We can't, like in 2011, depend on other results to go our way. If we are to qualify for the playoffs, we'll have to do something in September that we've never done under Trap, and win a game against a seeded playoff rival. If we're going to do that, we have to play our best players, try to score goals from open play, and produce a level of performance that we have only fleetingly seen under this manager. If the manager resorts to hoofing it and leaving out our best players for limited grafters, as we have done so often under Trapattoni, we will deserve the early elimination that will inevitably follow.
Last edited by Supreme feet; 11/08/2013 at 10:15 AM.
None of us know what we need to do. What we have to do is finish above Austria and Sweden at the end of the last game. If that means getting 5, 6, 7, or 8 points, that's what it means. The group is decided after we beat the Kazachs, and no sooner.
There are many other countries that would love to be in the position we're in, but are playing for ranking points only.
Will bet you any money you can we don't get 8 points from our remaining games. 5 at best I reckon.
5 is the most we can hope for, if we keep playing like we did against Austria.
Direct, attritional tactics are very well-suited to playing against lower-ranked teams. When we get the ball into the opposition half quickly, it forces mistakes and loose possession from defenders who aren't used to playing high-intensity football. Robbie's second goal in Macedonia, and the sendings-off in the Armenia and Estonia games, are both good examples of this.
However, against Bulgaria, Slovakia, Croatia, Austria, et al, we are playing against composed Bundesliga defenders who are well used to high-intensity football, and when we inevitably give possession away from long balls, these teams have enough quality/technique to keep possession for long periods. We then find it difficult to win it back, so like against Austria in the second half, we find ourselves chasing shadows and being too fatigued to use the ball constructively on the rare occasions that we get it. Stupidity is doing the same things over again while expecting different results - we have to be smarter against Sweden and Austria. We need to be able to play like we did in Stockholm, mix it up, and be able to slow the game down, do the simple things right, and keep the ball, especially if we find ourselves in front. With Hoolahan and McCarthy in midfield, and Keane dropping back, this would be achievable. With Whelan in there and two isolated centre-forwards, not so much. It's Trap's call.
Last edited by Supreme feet; 12/08/2013 at 8:50 AM.
I don't mean to nit pick either, but it was actually Dunne and not Breen that scored in Dublin also.
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