Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

[back of the net]

Trap has to be credited for taking us out of the abyss that the staunton era left us in.

But the last 2 and a bit years have not been good enough for a manager that is on his salary. We may have qualified for the euros and to be honest there was a lot of luck in us qualifying for them...i.e scraping results in the qualification group and an easy draw in the playoffs.

I do believe we have the players to compete and perform better at international level, but despite the great performance in Sweden, I knew , come the following Tuesday I would be tearing my hair out in Lansdowne Rd against Austria due to team selection and tactics which resulted in yet another blood pressure rising result.


Every team has a slice of luck , absolutely.....but luck eventually runs out.

The harsh reality is , Ireland are not viewed as highly as we should be by other national teams,(I am not saying we are world class) , the reason this is , is due to that any decent team knows how we are going to play and who we are going to use to play that way.

This is in turn leads to the main fact, Trap refuses to learn from the mistakes he has made (or has been making for nearly the last 2 years), playing the wrong players and the wrong tactics. As per luck , every team / Manager makes mistakes, it happens, but sweet jesus when you are getting paid 1.5 milion a bloody year and refuse to learn from them , then it becomes utterly infuriating.

In the last 2 years, I can only think of one very good performance and that was sweden away.....the majority of the rest have been painful and heartbreaking watching our manager show no faith in our good players ability..

And despite us not out of the running for WC 2014 ....why the hell should we be happy with that?? Spanked by germany and throwing away a victory against austria at home .... we should not have to be depending on if other results go our way ....if Trap had learnt from his mistakes, then we highly likely wouldnt have to do that to get 2nd place in the group behind germany..

[mypost]

Not from me it wasn't. I was saying at the time that it was misleading. How can you give credit to a defence for keeping a clean sheet when a guy hits the bar with a penalty, for example?

Because it didn't go in, simple really. He may as well have hit the corner flag as the bar, it's not a goal either way. Clean sheets don't recognise penalty misses, close shaves, or whether you're outplayed or not. They only recognise results.

I was very anxious in that last ten minutes. It just looked like one of those games where you could tell that a goal was on the cards even if there hadn't been a clear-cut chance to do so. Goals aren't always preceded by clear-cut chances. There's no rule that says you can only score if you have been very close just beforehand.

No there isn't, but there is a likelihood factor, and we dealt pretty comfortably imo with everything they threw at us. That's why I was stunned when the deflection went in.

Charlton did it against England and Holland in 1988 and Poland in 91, McCarthy tried it in Croatia and Macedonia, Kerr tried it in Cyprus and Israel, Staunton tried it in Slovakia. The art of defending results late on is part of the game and nothing new for us. It's a gamble alright, but in general it works more often than it doesn't.

[shakermaker1982]

If Stuttgart is not allowed to mention a penalty hitting the bar then you've got to stop mentioning that bloody deflection! It went in. Simple really. It's a goal.

[Charlie Darwin]

The leetle deetails.

[Junior]

Charlton did it against England and Holland in 1988 and Poland in 91, McCarthy tried it in Croatia and Macedonia, Kerr tried it in Cyprus and Israel, Staunton tried it in Slovakia. The art of defending results late on is part of the game and nothing new for us. It's a gamble alright, but in general it works more often than it doesn't.

Got any examples of the ones where it did work out for us, apart from England 88? I am not seeing where the "in general it works more often than it doesnt" in what you've said?
Or am I misunderstanding the point you are trying to make?

[Stuttgart88]

There's a famous book by Daryl Huff (?) "Lying With Statistics". Some will say that the stats don't lie but anyone but an idiot would recognise that numbers tell you one thing, qualitative judgment tells you another. The general observable trend was that as a team we were better organised and able to get good results - even if facile home wins over a vastly under-strength Northern Ireland were included in the data set.

The Scotland home game - Miller put a one-on-one an inch past the post with Given beaten all ends up and was arguably hard done by not to be given a penalty. The Bosnia friendluy at home - we gifted them a gilt-edged chance in injury time through pure sloppiness. The clean sheet record flattered us and disguised the fact that we were still giving up careless chances. Every team gives up chances, it's part of the game, but giving them up through carelessness was a trend that was also evident even if the clean sheet statistic was the headline-grabber. The qualitative trend suggested that we weren't as difficult to beat as the numbers suggested and when it came to the push that's what has subsequently been shown to be true.

I was watching Chelsea at Liverpool yesterday. You can argue all day long that both Sturridge and Suarez should have been off the pitch, but at the same tiime Chelsea sat further and further back and Liverpool, like Austria, hadn't caused any rweal panic but my experience of watching the game is that the more you sit back the more likely it is that you'll give something up.

[mypost]

Compare our best starting line up with other countries such as Sweden who are countries that regularly compete and do well at international tournaments. Many of their players would play for lower premiership/championship teams, or teams in poorer leagues than the premiership, yet I'm sure the Swedes wouldn't be quick to accept drubbings at the hands of Germany and Spain, as well as being comprehensively outplayed by Croatia and Italy. Okay, Ibra operates on a different levl to any of our players. However, the rest of their starting line up aren't exactly better than anything we have. Maybe one or two would get in ahead of our lads if you amalgamated the teams, but I couldn't pick out anyone that would walk into our team like Ibra.

We are far from perfect. Our goalkeepers are playing with Millwall and is the Sunderland number 2. We lack a top centre half than can dominate top class players. Dunne was able to do this and it may be another campaign (if ever) before Ciaran Clark can do this.

On a personal level, I like Trap. He's a likeable and charming man. I respect what he has achieved in the past. He was an outstanding manager and a great player in his day.

However, I stand by my opinion that he does not give the role 100%. If he did, he would be going to far more games and would surely be able to see that there are better players available for selection that he is picking.

Don't see what the Premiership factor has to do with anything. Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Iceland have had players in the EPL. What have they done internationally in recent years?

The inescapable reality is that our players have limited technical ability and our country usually fails to make tournaments, never mind get the opportunity to face three of the world's best sides in it. If you want to see our players true standing in the international game, you only have to travel roughly 200 kilometres up the road to realise where we really would be these days, without one of the game's greatest ever coaches in charge of our team.

[Yard of Pace]

I'm just still annoyed by the "we're not England, we're not Germany" quote.

If a Limerick hurling manager said similar, substituting, say, Tipp and Cork for the English and the Germans, they'd be lynched. And rightly so.

"Put 'em under pressure" has been changed to "hoof it long and give the ball to the opposition so that they can put us under pressure".

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm just still annoyed by the "we're not England, we're not Germany" quote.

If a Limerick hurling manager said similar, substituting, say, Tipp and Cork for the English and the Germans, they'd be lynched. And rightly so.

"Put 'em under pressure" has been changed to "hoof it long and give the ball to the opposition so that they can put us under pressure".

Put us under pressure! It has a nice ring to it.

[DeLorean]

I'm just still annoyed by the "we're not England, we're not Germany" quote.

If a Limerick hurling manager said similar, substituting, say, Tipp and Cork for the English and the Germans, they'd be lynched. And rightly so.

"Put 'em under pressure" has been changed to "hoof it long and give the ball to the opposition so that they can put us under pressure".

I still think a lot of you are missing what he meant by that, at least the way I took it. Tony O'Donoghue asked him if he would now consider his position after the draw with Austria. He was rightly baffled by such a stupid question and implied that we were never likely to be in much of a better position with regards qualifying after five games, in the way that Germany, England, etc are likely to be.

It would be more like a Limerick manager being asked if he would now consider his position after drawing with Clare in a Munster semi final.

[back of the net]

I still think a lot of you are missing what he meant by that, at least the way I took it. Tony O'Donoghue asked him if he would now consider his position after the draw with Austria. He was rightly baffled by such a stupid question and implied that we were never likely to be in much of a better position with regards qualifying after five games, in the way that Germany, England, etc are likely to be.

It would be more like a Limerick manager being asked if he would now consider his position after drawing with Clare in a Munster semi final.

Not so sure on that Delorean, I think Trap meant it , the way it came across. Whilst I didnt agree with O'Donoghue interview technique, I do believe Trap was highly insulted that O'Donoghue dared to question the ability / decisions of the "almighty" Trap , and thus he came out with infuriating comment.

When you say "baffled" - would Trap have been as Baffled as the irish supporters were who have seen their manager not take on board any of the numerous errors he made during the last campaign and the following euros despite getting paid 1.5mill per annum?

We all accept that Germany are far and away the best team in the group, but in reality if Trap was willing to get a grasp on his flawed tactics , we very likely would not have been pummelled by germany and would have beaten Austria.

We are currently ranked near the bottom of the Qualifying Groups 2nd Place seedings , with the bottom placed missing out on a playoff spot.....how important could those 2 dropped points against be?

If us and Austria, or Us and Sweden end up level on points with both games against each other drawn....will it go to goal difference? 6 goals conceded against germany should will probably rule us out of that equation also

So IMO we could be in a better position in regards of qualifying if Trap was willing to open his eyes

[mypost]

If us and Austria, or Us and Sweden end up level on points with both games against each other drawn....will it go to goal difference? 6 goals conceded against germany should will probably rule us out of that equation also

So IMO we could be in a better position in regards of qualifying if Trap was willing to open his eyes

The group goal difference can decide who finishes where in the group. Then the team who finishes second will be judged by their points tally, minus that of the bottom team. e.g. 18 total (- 6 v Faroes) = 12 playoff points. Those 12 points are then used against all the other group runners-up to decide the best 8 that qualify. Atm, we have 5 playoff points going into September. We finished 8th of the 8 teams 4 years ago. There's plenty of time left to get more.

Goal difference means absolutely nothing unless 2nd and below in the group finish level on points, and our fate in any WCQ has not been decided by goal difference since 1982. The closest it came to since then was in 1994, as the number of Goals Scored was required to separate us from Denmark. We scored 4 more than them after 12 games.

[DeLorean]

Not so sure on that Delorean, I think Trap meant it , the way it came across. Whilst I didnt agree with O'Donoghue interview technique, I do believe Trap was highly insulted that O'Donoghue dared to question the ability / decisions of the "almighty" Trap , and thus he came out with infuriating comment.

We could be in a better position, no doubt about that. I totally disagree about the TOD interview though. After the uplifting performance in Sweden and being within seconds of a vital win, undeserved or otherwise, I honestly think he was just saying to himself "ah just f*** off Donoghue, not this sh*t again" but hadn't the patience at that moment to dress it up, so he just went with the first thing that came into his head which was a bit of a reality lesson to Tony. The reality being that we're still in contention and, although it could be a lot better, any other manager is unlikely to have done as well results-wise over the past few years. I think Trap has always, in normal circumstances, tried to explain why he has chosen a certain way of playing and tried to justify what certain players can bring or certain players cannot. Therefore I don't think it's a case of him getting insulted by somebody questioning the "almighty" Trap. I'm sure Trap felt every bit as bad as all of us at that moment and I could barely speak at all I was so disgusted.

None of this is anything to do with whether I believe he has made the right calls or played the right systems. I think we all agree that some of his selections and tactics have been frustrating and, at times, bizarre.

[back of the net]

We could be in a better position, no doubt about that. I totally disagree about the TOD interview though. After the uplifting performance in Sweden and being within seconds of a vital win, undeserved or otherwise, I honestly think he was just saying to himself "ah just f*** off Donoghue, not this sh*t again" but hadn't the patience at that moment to dress it up, so he just went with the first thing that came into his head which was a bit of a reality lesson to Tony.

None of this is anything to do with whether I believe he has made the right calls or played the right systems. I think we all agree that some of his selections and tactics have been frustrating and, at times, bizarre.

But surely after an uplifting performance in Sweden, it would make sense not to go back to the old tried and Failed routine as he did in Lansdowne....if Trap is going to consistently employ the same failed rubbish tactics , he is going to leave himself open to a "tougher" form of questioning (again I dont agree with O'donoghues deployment of the questions) from journalists?

Trap just looked like a man who didnt have the answers to the questions been asked IMO and so he came out that statement and that is not good enough for a man on 1.5million

As you say , we all find his tactics bizarre and frustrating but when they are the failing alot of the time then questions have to be asked and unfortunately Trap is starting to look like a manager with very few answers

[paul_oshea]

Either way, whatever was meant, for a man of his experience and salary, he should not be coming out saying something like that or in that tone after a game. I know it shows how upset he was with drawing the game, but a level of professionalism should be expected for someone so expensive.

[back of the net]

The group goal difference can decide who finishes where in the group. Then the team who finishes second will be judged by their points tally, minus that of the bottom team. e.g. 18 total (- 6 v Faroes) = 12 playoff points. Those 12 points are then used against all the other group runners-up to decide the best 8 that qualify. Atm, we have 5 playoff points going into September. We finished 8th of the 8 teams 4 years ago. There's plenty of time left to get more.
.

So whats your expectations for the number of points we will get from the remaining games and do you think it will be good enough to get us into the playoffs?

Goal difference means absolutely nothing unless 2nd and below in the group finish level on points, and our fate in any WCQ has not been decided by goal difference since 1982. The closest it came to since then was in 1994, as the number of Goals Scored was required to separate us from Denmark. We scored 4 more than them after 12 games.

Referencing Past History means absolutely nothing in all honesty

[DeLorean]

Either way, whatever was meant, for a man of his experience and salary, he should not be coming out saying something like that or in that tone after a game. I know it shows how upset he was with drawing the game, but a level of professionalism should be expected for someone so expensive.

What he said doesn't bother me. I feel the majority that keep harping on about it are taking him out of context and, even if they're not, I still don't think it was that ridiculous a statement. It's slightly different but managers at the smaller clubs say they can't compete with the big boys all the time, I never hear them being ridiculed for not daring to dream or insulting the club's fine tradition.

Yeah back of the net I suppose I'm just weighing everything up and coming out on Trap's side overall. I'm not defending all of his selections or tactics, far from it.

[Stuttgart88]

I think DeLorean has made his point very well and I think it may well just be that he said what he said in response to aggressive questioning by TOD and not armed with great command of English, though I'm sure Manuela could have helped. However, I just can't help feel that it betrays a lack of belief in his players, the same lack of belief that made him feel that even despite proving we could play in Stockholm that hoofball was the only way to beat Austria at home.

[Yard of Pace]

Trap also told us we have absolutely no right to think we can compete with Germany after they thrashed us in October. Now, that may be true, but the manager should never ever say it, imo. After all, we have to go to Germany and play them again.

To continue the Limerick analogy, we are playing Tipp in June. All things considered, they should hockey us. They hammered Dublin yesterday, who beat us a couple of weeks ago. BUT......"Limerick never feared Tipp" is the mantra. On the day, the players will rip into their opponents, they'll show no fear, they'll fully believe they can win, and if we do lose, I would bet it won't be an embarrassing loss. And that's all I ask of the them, and this Irish team.

[gastric]

Niall Quinn gives his opinion on Trap's reign.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29217623.html