Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

[Closed Account 2]

It's hard to say how good Largerback is as a lot of his sucess came as part of a double act with Soderberger. Once the latter left (after Euro 2004) his Sweden have had a record of finishing 2nd or 3rd in most qualification groups in a similar way to us under Trap. For WC 2006 they finished second in an easy group (Croatia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Iceland, Malta) but they lost both of the big games against Croatia, at the World Cup they drew 0-0 with Trinidad, beat Paraguay 1-0 and drew 2-2 with England - pretty average results but they finished 2nd so went into the knockouts where they lost to Germany 2-0 in a horrendous game where after conceeding on 4 minutes they gamely tried to defend a 1 goal defecit for 86 mins.

For the Euro 2008 qualifiers they finished 2nd behind Spain, but they were given a monumental boost by being awarded the Denmark away game 3-0 after a drunk (Danish) fan slapped the ref. This crippled the Danish chances of finishing second. In the Swedes big matches they beat Spain at home and lost to them away, drew at home with Denmark and were awarded the away match, but they only took one point from the two games with the north (drew 1-1 in Stockholm lost 2-1 in Belfast). You have to give them credit for getting into second but they were not all that convincing and dropped sloppy points. In the tournament group stage they beat Greece but then lost to Russia and Spain so went out. For WC 2010 they didnt make it and finished 3rd behind Denmark and Portugal. In their key matches against those two they lost home and away to the Danes and drew 0-0 twice with Portugal, two points from a possible 12 against the big teams wasnt enough and Largerback walked. Is his qualification record at Sweden significantly better than Traps? 3 Campaigns: twice runner up and once third? I dont think he built a particular identity in terms of the Swedish national team, the football was functional rather than fluid and there is a case for saying a lot of his success came from the foundations that Svensson and Soderberger created in the decade before him.

He then took charge of Nigeria at the 2010 WC, and while it's harsh to judge a manager who had less than 6 months with the squad, Largerbeck certainly wasnt a success at Nigeria. They lost 1-0 to Argentina in the first match. In the second match they were in a great position, 1 up vs Greece, but contrived to throw it away due to bad discipline and lost 2-1. Amazingly they still had a chance of going through in their final match as they took the lead against South Korea, but they ended up drawing 2-2 and went out of the group stage with one point. I would say the FAI should look at him after Trap goes (end of this campaign at the latest) but I dont think he has some sort of golden elixir and I would be suprised if the results would be much better.

[pineapple stu]

On Sweden's abandoned away game in Denmark, it should be noted that when the game was abandoned, there was a minute to go and Sweden had a penalty. So I wouldn't say the 3-0 award was a monumental boost; they were probably going to win the game anyway.

[Closed Account 2]

I'm not sure they would have, Sweden went 3-0 up and then fell apart the Danes made it 3-3 and as you Poulsen was given a red for an off the ball tussle with Rosenberg and a penalty was awarded, at the time Sweden had made defensive subs (Allback and Elmander - both strikers - off for the more positionally conservaite Rosenberg and the midfielder Kennedy Bacaryoglue) Ibrahimovic wasnt on the pitch so it's not clear who would have taken the penalty (maybe Anders Svensson, Ljungbjerg or Wilhelmsonn) the latter two took penalties in a shootout agains the Dutch 3 years earlier, but there wasnt really a recognised Swedish spot kick taker on the pitch.

[pineapple stu]

Well even if you liken it to the fourth penalty kick in a shoot-out - in terms of pressure and ability of kicker, assuming teams often save a strong kicker for the fifth kick - you're still looking at greater than a 70% chance that they'd have scored. Then all they had to do was hold out for injury time against ten men. I'm happy to stick with stating that they "probably" (not definitely) would have won.

[DeLorean]

I don't think that 70% takes into account games being played away from home, which may reduce the percentage. Also, it definitely doesn't take into account the mental strain of throwing away a three goal lead in a crucial qualifier. For example, I always felt Liverpool were going to beat Milan in the Champions League final in 2005. Milan had the mental drain of having the game won and now they were involved in a lottery. Liverpool were in bonus territory as they must have felt their chance was gone at one point. Milan only scored 40% of their penalties that night. I believe this requires further analysis

[Closed Account 2]

The 3-0 award also buggered Denmark on a potential head-to-head with Sweden. Ranking was done on head to head not goal difference for those Euros (the North with 20pts and +3gd finished above Denmark on 20pts and +10gd because of head-to-head). Sweden and Denmark played the reverse fixture (of the abandoned one) 3 months later in in Stockholm and the Danes had to win by 4 goals to pip Sweden on head-to-head if they ended up level on points.

[BonnieShels]

Ah... the north on 20 points.

Add that to Spain '82.

[brine3]

I would live a proven top class manager, but I don't think Jose Mourinho or the chap at Dortmund would be up for managing Ireland

McDermott had little or no money to spend, compared to the teams around him. He had a very good season in getting them promotion and I think it was wrong that he was sacked by Reading. If you read my post, I do note my concerns about him and his lack of experience. I would put him in the one to watch category, possibly down the line he could be a very good manager.

Thing is, he is available now, he doesn't cost the Earth and we are still in with a remote chance of qualification.

Down the line he may indeed become a good manager and then we wouldn't be able to afford him or he might not be unemployed any more.

[geysir]

It's hard to say how good Largerback is as a lot of his sucess came as part of a double act with Soderberger. Once the latter left (after Euro 2004) his Sweden have had a record of finishing 2nd or 3rd in most qualification groups in a similar way to us under Trap. For WC 2006 they finished second in an easy group (Croatia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Iceland, Malta) but they lost both of the big games against Croatia, at the World Cup they drew 0-0 with Trinidad, beat Paraguay 1-0 and drew 2-2 with England - pretty average results but they finished 2nd so went into the knockouts where they lost to Germany 2-0 in a horrendous game where after conceeding on 4 minutes they gamely tried to defend a 1 goal defecit for 86 mins.

For the Euro 2008 qualifiers they finished 2nd behind Spain, but they were given a monumental boost by being awarded the Denmark away game 3-0 after a drunk (Danish) fan slapped the ref. This crippled the Danish chances of finishing second. In the Swedes big matches they beat Spain at home and lost to them away, drew at home with Denmark and were awarded the away match, but they only took one point from the two games with the north (drew 1-1 in Stockholm lost 2-1 in Belfast). You have to give them credit for getting into second but they were not all that convincing and dropped sloppy points. In the tournament group stage they beat Greece but then lost to Russia and Spain so went out. For WC 2010 they didnt make it and finished 3rd behind Denmark and Portugal. In their key matches against those two they lost home and away to the Danes and drew 0-0 twice with Portugal, two points from a possible 12 against the big teams wasnt enough and Largerback walked. Is his qualification record at Sweden significantly better than Traps? 3 Campaigns: twice runner up and once third? I dont think he built a particular identity in terms of the Swedish national team, the football was functional rather than fluid and there is a case for saying a lot of his success came from the foundations that Svensson and Soderberger created in the decade before him.

He then took charge of Nigeria at the 2010 WC, and while it's harsh to judge a manager who had less than 6 months with the squad, Largerbeck certainly wasnt a success at Nigeria. They lost 1-0 to Argentina in the first match. In the second match they were in a great position, 1 up vs Greece, but contrived to throw it away due to bad discipline and lost 2-1. Amazingly they still had a chance of going through in their final match as they took the lead against South Korea, but they ended up drawing 2-2 and went out of the group stage with one point. I would say the FAI should look at him after Trap goes (end of this campaign at the latest) but I dont think he has some sort of golden elixir and I would be suprised if the results would be much better.

Much of that read like a wiki account. I mean how on earth can you even mention Nigerian discipline during one World Cup finals game when he was a temp manager? Anyone can write a glowing tribute about Trap and what he managed to achieve with Ireland with paltry football resources and anyone can write the opposite.
I never watched any games with Sweden in the qualifiers, just on occasion at the Finals, when apart from USA'94 I would be bored rigid.
Zlatan makes them an interesting proposition now to watch but without Zlatan I would not watch them play.
That's how Sweden are. On occasion they produce a brilliant footballer like Torbjorn Nilsson, Larson and Zlatan, most times it's a sum of the Volvo and Saab parts.
Lagerback has transformed a relatively talented bunch of players who were stuck defending for 90 minute against teams like Sweden and Denmark, into into an effective team playing attractive football, which has the ball for 50% of the game and getting results. He has proved his worth and not living on the back of what somebody else was supposed to have achieved for sweden on his behalf.

[Closed Account 2]

Much of that read like a wiki account. I mean how on earth can you even mention Nigerian discipline during one World Cup finals game when he was a temp manager? Anyone can write a glowing tribute about Trap and what he managed to achieve with Ireland with paltry football resources and anyone can write the opposite.
I never watched any games with Sweden in the qualifiers, just on occasion at the Finals, when apart from USA'94 I would be bored rigid.
Zlatan makes them an interesting proposition now to watch but without Zlatan I would not watch them play.
That's how Sweden are. On occasion they produce a brilliant footballer like Torbjorn Nilsson, Larson and Zlatan, most times it's a sum of the Volvo and Saab parts.
Lagerback has transformed a relatively talented bunch of players who were stuck defending for 90 minute against teams like Sweden and Denmark, into into an effective team playing attractive football, which has the ball for 50% of the game and getting results. He has proved his worth and not liv what somebody else was supposed to have achieved for sweden on his behal.

Sorry it was such a long and complex post for you to read . I detailed his qualification record with Sweden, pointed out it was similar to Traps and in the key games against the bigger teams the resuls were mixed at best.

He couldn't turn Nigeria around in 6 months, they still suffered from the same problems they had prior to his appointment, problems that Keshi eventually started to rectify. In fact if you want a barometer of Swedish managers in temporary charge of teams during the WC Svens Ivory Coast did significantly better in a harder group than Largerbacks Nigeria. Given this its unlikely Largerback will turn things around for us if he was appointed now as there are only around 6 months left.

You say he's proved his worth but what exactly has he proved, when you look at the facts (ie results) I would say he's on par with the squads he's had in the qualification groups they've been drawn in.

[ifk101]

Lagerback has transformed a relatively talented bunch of players who were stuck defending for 90 minute against teams like Sweden and Denmark, into into an effective team playing attractive football, which has the ball for 50% of the game and getting results. He has proved his worth and not living on the back of what somebody else was supposed to have achieved for sweden on his behalf.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...eland-v-norway
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...prus-v-iceland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...ania-v-iceland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...-v-switzerland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...enia-v-iceland

Near enough to 50% possession in the Norway and Slovenia games. Otherwise the statistics from the above games would suggest Iceland have been outplayed more often than not.

[Yard of Pace]

I don't particularly agree with it but I think the next manager has to come from Ireland or Britain. I don't think international football is rocket science. I've yet to see a post on any forum hasn't mentioned that we should have gone 4-5-1 after 60/70 minutes with Green or Wes coming on. We'd have gotten three points then. I'd bet my life on it.

Anyway, the players nowadays, they seem a delicate lot (Gibson, Ireland, Foley etc), or slightly insane (McClean, Duffy) and while Trap didn't help himself, I think first and foremost the new manager should be someone who the players respect and can relate to. As regards McDermott, Paul Merson (yeah, I know) said on Soccer Saturday that the Reading players were mad about him. If a manager can organise a team, make the necessary calls and the players enjoy coming to play for Ireland and for the manager.....the rest will fall into place. Imo.

[Stuttgart88]

I think that's a fair analysis. Very few international managers make the difference. It's usually abbot the players and a bit of common sense. I think we have the players to be a strong candidate for second place but I think that the manager's lack of trust in the players is self defeating. If the players felt that the manager trusted them and wasn't making strange calls, and the squad was pumped with a sense of common purpose then the only other parts a manager has to bring is relatively basic.

I think Trap is failing on most of the above. I don't like saying it because I like him, I think he's an extraordinary model of dignity and elegance and an extraordinary physical phenomenon for a 74 year old.

There are probably very few genuinely accretive managers out there that we can afford, but probably a few who wouldn't fail to unite an Irish squad and who would avoid doing some of the dumb things Trap has done (insert list of inconsistent or just plain odd decisions her).

I think Yopper's post above is one of the most sensible I've read so far.

[bennocelt]

We've already had Lars Lagerbäck as manager. He just called himself Brian Kerr at the time. I'd imagine Lagerbäck is content managing a team where stringing a couple of passes together is called revolutionary.

Agreed, nothing special IMHO, would be another wasted appointment.

[shakermaker1982]

Brian McDermott is available & I'd give him the job this morning.

He might not be a sexy name but I think we need to look closer to home for the next appointment. I want somebody living in Ireland or England who can go to a game every week & follow up on any promising youngsters playing reserve team football.

I like the Trap but I think he has reached the end with us. I respect what he has achieved with us and am extremely grateful for the first 2 campaigns but time for a new broom. Sadly the Trap has weathered another storm so unless we draw with the Faroes in June we've got him for the full campaign.

[paul_oshea]

bennocelt the eamon dunphy of foot.ie always knocking never offering a suggestion.

[geysir]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...eland-v-norway
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...prus-v-iceland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...ania-v-iceland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...-v-switzerland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/m...enia-v-iceland

Near enough to 50% possession in the Norway and Slovenia games. Otherwise the statistics from the above games would suggest Iceland have been outplayed more often than not.

Near enough to 50% possession in the games that they got exceptional deserved results in. A game played in a deluge in Albania which they won. A poor game in Cyprus And you would have to have seen the ding dong game against Switzerland to have an overview of that one.
Not bad for 6th seeds.

[geysir]

Sorry it was such a long and complex post for you to read . I detailed his qualification record with Sweden, pointed out it was similar to Traps and in the key games against the bigger teams the resuls were mixed at best.
He couldn't turn Nigeria around in 6 months, they still suffered from the same problems they had prior to his appointment, problems that Keshi eventually started to rectify. In fact if you want a barometer of Swedish managers in temporary charge of teams during the WC Svens Ivory Coast did significantly better in a harder group than Largerbacks Nigeria. Given this its unlikely Largerback will turn things around for us if he was appointed now as there are only around 6 months left.
You say he's proved his worth but what exactly has he proved, when you look at the facts (ie results) I would say he's on par with the squads he's had in the qualification groups they've been drawn in.

I read your post but it just read like a Wiki account. Based on a Wiki cv, Trap looks like the creme de la creme.
If you have watched Lagerback's qualifying games when manager of Sweden, and you have an opinion based on observation of the available squad, opposition etc. then fair enough. I only have it that he has a vast experience with Sweden and now I see the value of his expertise with a squad of intl players. What I see I like.
And I never even remotely hinted that Lagerback could come in for this qual campaign. If anything I said November.

[OwlsFan]

I just don't see this Brian McDermott thing except as a reaction to having Father Time in control at the moment. His former team conceded the most goals in the Premiership, even more than Wigan. Sure, it is a small club among the big boys, but is that not us as well, so why should he be able to compete with the Germanys etc of this world based upon his track record at Reading? I would not see us reaching the heights (yes heights) we reached under Trap. For years I have heard calls for the head of managers at Wednesday and I have seen 20 come and go, of whom only 5 (salutes Jack Charlton) improved things. Not of course an argument not to change things but an argument to make sure the right candidate is chosen with experience (but perhaps not 74 years of experience). I would suggest that Martin O'Neill will become available sooner rather than later and he would be my choice. I could see the wheels totally coming off the rails with McDermott but then I don't have my favourite crystal ball to hand at the moment.

[jbyrne]

I don't particularly agree with it but I think the next manager has to come from Ireland or Britain. I don't think international football is rocket science. I've yet to see a post on any forum hasn't mentioned that we should have gone 4-5-1 after 60/70 minutes with Green or Wes coming on. We'd have gotten three points then. I'd bet my life on it.

when kerr went to 5 in midfield when robbie went off v israel 2005 and us 2 nil up at the time he got slated when it ended 2-2 for doing so. on the one hand the negativity stick is used to beat trap when it suits but when he does something semi-positive like keep 2 up front on tuesday he gets beaten with that stick too.