Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

[mypost]

I think we need to look closer to home for the next appointment. I want somebody living in Ireland or England who can go to a game every week & follow up on any promising youngsters playing reserve team football.

Kerr, Staunton etc...

Who seriously reckons that reserve team footballers are up to the demands of international football?

[DeLorean]

I'm sorry but Brian McDermott? Sean O'Driscoll?

I have no problem with the view that Trap's time is up and all that but some of the names being thrown about are ridiculous. These guys have done nothing to suggest they'd make good international managers, they have very little experience full stop. I can't believe some of ye would gamble with our rankings, seedings, reputation, etc. with total shots in the dark like these guys.

Imagine sacking Trap while we're still in with a chance of qualifying after making the Euros and narrowly missing out on South Africa. A few months down the line, things have gone from bad to worse and we're not getting the results and it's clear McDermott, for example, is out of his depth. We would plumet in the rankings and what manager in his right mind would want the job then, possibly less than a year after we got rid of the legendary Trap who brought us to the Euros and getting rid of his replacement after a few months.

I have no interest in playing Russian roulette with our next few campaigns by taking a complete gamble on one of these guys. My God like, Sean O'Driscoll was manager of Doncaster Rovers up until a year ago. He could turn out to be a success but we can't take a chance like that. Fair enough maybe if a Martin O'Neill comes available, or somebody who has actually done something in management at a reasonable level for a reasonable length of time.

It's been said that Trap has no respect for our footballing tradition and history... well anybody that suggests unproven managers like McDermott and O'Driscoll don't have much respect for it either. We're surely worth more than some flavour of the month Bristol City boss or Reading reject. Nothing personal against either of these guys by the way, I like them both and feel they were very badly treated at Forest and Reading.

I don't think international management is quite as easy as some are making it out either.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's as maybe. But sadly think you're overestimating the appeal of being the next Irish manager. Both in terms of the financial package and relative likelihood of success...

[ArdeeBhoy]

when kerr went to 5 in midfield when robbie went off v israel 2005 and us 2 nil up at the time he got slated when it ended 2-2 for doing so. on the one hand the negativity stick is used to beat trap when it suits but when he does something semi-positive like keep 2 up front on tuesday he gets beaten with that stick too.

Except the issue was who the auld fool left on to to do this.
Not the 'tactics' in terms of nos'. Which has punctuated his recent selections to an ever increasing degree...

[jbyrne]

That's as maybe. But sadly think you're overestimating the appeal of being the next Irish manager. Both in terms of the financial package and relative likelihood of success...

but have you forgotten that it is the manager who dictates the likelihood of success as the anti trap brigade have been arguing?

[Stuttgart88]

Kerr did not go 5 in midfield against Israel. C'mon JB, you know that - you've been on here long enough and it's been discussed often enough.

He brought on another midfielder alright (Kav I think) but moved a midfielder (Duff?) forward. It was resolutely 442 still and ranks as one of the worst substitutions ever made by an Irish manager. Stephen Elliott was chomping at the bit to come on but Kerr made 3 positional switches with one substitution. I stlil think he was extraordinarily unlucky not to win the game though.

[paul_oshea]

when kerr went to 5 in midfield when robbie went off v israel 2005 and us 2 nil up at the time he got slated when it ended 2-2 for doing so. on the one hand the negativity stick is used to beat trap when it suits but when he does something semi-positive like keep 2 up front on tuesday he gets beaten with that stick too.

He didnt go 5 across the midfield but brought on a defensive midfielder. I made this point earlier on a different thread but against Israel we were dominant there was no need to do this so early, that invited them onto us and they did so. Against austria they were dominating us in midfield and we were ahead. You make changes in games to benefit, releave or counteract the opponent.Trap did none of these.

[ArdeeBhoy]

but have you forgotten that it is the manager who dictates the likelihood of success as the anti trap brigade have been arguing?

Sorry. What's yer point here?

In relation to my quote?

[Stuttgart88]

Just in response to DeLorean's post no. 302 (quoting using my iPad is tricky) I think Yard of Pace made the most pertinent point in relation to someone like McDermott. Gary Speed or Slaven Bilic had done nothing of note in management, and I'm sure there are many other examples of unheralded managers getting the most out of what's available to them. McDermotts excellent run last season is not to be dismissed. It shows to me that he clearly has some talent and an ability to get good results in a tough league that's arguably comparable with a qualification group.

I think a manager that has basic competences (ability to select best 11, a balanced team, round pegs in round holes, ability to motivate, ability to react to changing circumstances) ought to be able to get this decent bunch of players to do at least as well as Trap.
The only nagging doubt I have about ditching Trap is the away record. It deserves a lot of credit.

[tetsujin1979]

While I think McDermott would be a fine candidate, although not one I would pick, and his record in the second half of last season was exemplary, what about the first half of the season?
Before Reading went on an outstanding run of wins, I think they something like 10th around Christmas, or roughly 23 games. To me, that suggests it took McDermott that long to adjust to the league, despite being familiar with the club, the squad and their skillset. Almost half a season before he was preparing his players, formation and tactics to get the best from the squad, before going on to win the title, and promotion. That's more games than would come in two years of international football, more than the number of games in two qualifying campaigns. I'm not suggesting that it would take that long for McDermott to stamp his authority on the international side, but equally I don't think he's ready for international football yet. He might be a candidate for the long term, rather than the immediate

[DannyInvincible]

Gary Speed or Slaven Bilic had done nothing of note in management, and I'm sure there are many other examples of unheralded managers getting the most out of what's available to them.

Their status as relatively young (perhaps even suave) former players appeared to command them an incredible level of respect, credibility and commitment from those who played under them.

It doesn't always work out that way, mind...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Perhaps we could have McDermott (or similar) for home games and Trap for aways, though the latter's record won't last out the year IMO.

[SkStu]

While I think McDermott would be a fine candidate, although not one I would pick, and his record in the second half of last season was exemplary, what about the first half of the season?
Before Reading went on an outstanding run of wins, I think they something like 10th around Christmas, or roughly 23 games. To me, that suggests it took McDermott that long to adjust to the league, despite being familiar with the club, the squad and their skillset. Almost half a season before he was preparing his players, formation and tactics to get the best from the squad, before going on to win the title, and promotion. That's more games than would come in two years of international football, more than the number of games in two qualifying campaigns. I'm not suggesting that it would take that long for McDermott to stamp his authority on the international side, but equally I don't think he's ready for international football yet. He might be a candidate for the long term, rather than the immediate

In fairness, it doesn't really work that way in international football. It's a bit different... I really don't know enough about McDermott to have too much of an opinion on whether or to he'd be a good appointment but he's achieved more already than McCarthy had when he got the gig. Staunton was just a bizarre call in retrospect, a call that delaney is fortunate to have survived.

We should start by defining what we want from an international manager and picking the most suitable interested candidate. We won't attract the cream of the crop but the least we can do is be smart about it and define our gaps, aims and some deliverables. I've got my own ideas about the profile of an Irish manager so I'd hope that our administrators do too.

[DeLorean]

Just in response to DeLorean's post no. 302 (quoting using my iPad is tricky) I think Yard of Pace made the most pertinent point in relation to someone like McDermott. Gary Speed or Slaven Bilic had done nothing of note in management, and I'm sure there are many other examples of unheralded managers getting the most out of what's available to them. McDermotts excellent run last season is not to be dismissed. It shows to me that he clearly has some talent and an ability to get good results in a tough league that's arguably comparable with a qualification group.

I think a manager that has basic competences (ability to select best 11, a balanced team, round pegs in round holes, ability to motivate, ability to react to changing circumstances) ought to be able to get this decent bunch of players to do at least as well as Trap.
The only nagging doubt I have about ditching Trap is the away record. It deserves a lot of credit.

Gary Speed, like Bilic, would have been a hero in his own country for his contribution to his national team and football generally. Of course this didn't mean they could automatically manage, but at least they had the respect of their players straight away. Also, in Wales case, the only way was up so it may have been a gamble worth taking as they hadn't much to lose. Nobody can realistically say the only way is up for us, it's very possible things could go horribly wrong eg. pre-Trap.

I'm not dismissing McDermott's achievements at all, I'm just putting them into the context they belong. If every manager who had a purple patch of results in the lower leagues is to be considered we'll have a pretty long list. Sorry but I think we're a bigger deal and a much bigger job than Reading and Doncaster, but then I suppose I'm biased.

I don't really think those basic competencies come as easily as you imply either. The majority of managers have some in spades and little of others. Certain managers are more suited to certain jobs.

[shakermaker1982]

Kerr, Staunton etc...

Who seriously reckons that reserve team footballers are up to the demands of international football?

Did I say that?

Nothing wrong with wanting a manager who has got a lot of free time to check on promising players like Shane Duffy or catch up with players coming back from injury.

[shakermaker1982]

I think some of you need also need to be realistic when it comes to our next appointment.

England had to go back to basics with Hodgson despite being able to afford Mourinho & co. international management is a gig for young up and comers or old timers looking for one last big pay off before they head off to the nursing home. I'm fairly confident the FAI will go down the Irish/English route this time around. Ability to speak coherent English a must.

[tetsujin1979]

going to break the habit of a lifetime and link to an article on goal.com: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/edi...?ICID=AR_TS_3#
It's the opposite point of view to the thread at the moment, and while I wouldn't agree with all of it, there's a few interesting points

[Kingdom]

going to break the habit of a lifetime and link to an article on goal.com: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/edi...?ICID=AR_TS_3#
It's the opposite point of view to the thread at the moment, and while I wouldn't agree with all of it, there's a few interesting points

If we were in Scotland's group, and they in ours, I'd venture we'd be in exactly the same positions. Scotland have a horror group.

[DeLorean]

going to break the habit of a lifetime and link to an article on goal.com: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/edi...?ICID=AR_TS_3#
It's the opposite point of view to the thread at the moment, and while I wouldn't agree with all of it, there's a few interesting points

A therapeutic read. I found the last couple of sentences confusing after all the sarcasm!

If we were in Scotland's group, and they in ours, I'd venture we'd be in exactly the same positions. Scotland have a horror group.

I doubt we'd have lost to Wales twice for a start or failed to beat Macedonia at home. We have also proved that we're more than capable of getting results elsewhere as well, albeit I wouldn't fancy our chances of finishing ahead of Belgium or Croatia.

[tommy_c12000]

Although his stock has fallen in recent years, I still think Martin O'Neill would be the ideal man for Ireland. He got the very best out of a limited pool of players at Leicester and Celtic and did an ok job with Villa. Unfortunately, he had a bit of a nightmare with Sunderland. Out of the available managers, O'Neill is the only man that I would pay Trap off for.

Given the precarious financial position the FAI are in though, we will have to wait until Trap's contract runs out next year and take our chances that there will be a reasonable managerial market available. I predict O'Neill won't be available when this juncture comes.