over 1000 people in the school in beslan

[thecorner]

in fairness to brendy his points were well made and the comment regarding the children was not to be taken literally imho.
his point about a life is a life is strictly speaking true but you cound'nt compare, say the life of a 90 year old granny and a newborn infant,while the granny would hold onto her life as long as possible(would'nt we all),the life of a child is something special,it is evolving,the childs potential has not been reached.

you will know(if you read signatures)that i have 2 children and the thoughts of anything happening to them in something like this incident chills me to the core.

brendy,i am not attepmpting to speak for you but i think people are taking you up wrong on your last point

how the fcuk can u defend this pr!ck

ill risk being banned or suspended for this but brendy... U R A PR!CK

i have a son and i would gladly put his life in front of mine

id gladly stand in front of a bullet for him

you have some fcuking neck

[liam88]

Agreeing with PP here Brendy-a well thought out argument ruined by a stupid comment that will probably change over time when you have kid/nephews/nieces etc.
I know it may sound wierd coming from a 16 year old but I know all parents want is a better quality of life for their children than they have themselves and that the worse thing ever is a parent having to bury their own kid-as has been said.
Don't want to re-gurgitate points made before but aye it's not about logic and statistics and which flag is on top of political buildings, it's innocent lives.
If we're going to compare to Northern Ireland say, I'd rather it was part of the Republic but I don't think people should be killed for it. The Troubles were responsible for the loss of so many INNOCENT lives and it makes you think was it worth it? Not trying to be un-patriotic or anything but innocent people are murdered by both sides in any conflict-the Troubles and Chechnya included and innocent people should never have to die no matter what. Hence it doesn't matter which side you support but you can never support their tactics if innocent people are being killed. Like I said-I'd support the Republican cause but never the IRA for the simple reason that the IRA killed innocent people-the majority of whom had nothing to do with the conflict.
Sorry for bringing Northern Ireland into this but just drawing comparissons-personally I don't know enough about Russia/Chechnya to make a judgement on who should have sovereignty but I do know that killing innocent people especially children is wrong no matter is it's Russians, Checyns, Americans, Al-Qaueda, Isralies, Palestinians, IRA or LVF doing it.
Nuff said

[brendy_éire]

brendy,i am not attepmpting to speak for you but i think people are taking you up wrong on your last point

Yes! Very much so.

Although your view is 'logical', logic doesn't really hold much sway in these situations, does it? You cannot be clinical in these situations.

I think people should always aim to be logical, regardless of the situation. People being led by emotions do stupid things, like taking people hostage in a school.

The crux of the matter is: Who would you rather die - you or your kids? Answer that truthfully, and you've answered your own question.

I'm not a parent, so I guess I'm not able to understand what a parent feels for their child exactly. ATM, I wouldn't give up my life for anyone else, though if it was 2 lives I would.

if Chechnya falls then Dagestan (who the Chechens invaded in 1999), Ingushetia, and even places in more central like Tartarstan would demand independance. It could cause the Russian Federation to fall apart at the seems. Also bear in mind that the other regions of the USSR to get independance were infact SSRs (Soviet Republics eg Azerbaijan, Armenia, Latvia etc) Chechnya was/has been considered part of Russia since pre-Soviet times.

But Russia isn't an artifical country in its present state? Countries are (supposed to be) formed by groups of people living in a certain area, ie France is populated by the French, Spain by the Spanish, Ireland by the Irish. Russia contains countless ethnic minorities, it's unnatural for a country to exist like that. Sooner or later ethnic minorities are going to become a problem for Russia unless something is done to shift populations (like China moving Chinese people into Tibet to water down the ethnic population) or give minorities some sort of self-determination.

As for the tactics used by Chechen independence fighters, ye get nutcases all over the world. We Irish did worse to each other in the Civil War. It's sad fact of life that you'll get people like that in situations such as Chechnya. Al Qaeda will get involved if they see a 'market' for their brand of Islamic fundementalism, I think it's unfair to judge the entire Chechen cause on the actions of extremists.

To those who slated me there, especially you, 'thecorner', explain your objections, because I really don't get it.
Maybe I'm too young to understand it, but what's the difference between killing an adult and killing a child? A life's a life. An adult will be missed as much as a child. Granted, an adult has lived longer, but is that any reason to feel less bad about it?
Feck, you could look at it through the eyes of an insurance company. An insurance company will pay out more for the death of an adult than they will for a child. An adult earns the wages, a child doesn't. Adults cover their costs with their wages, whilst children take money from the household for a considerable period of time. To an insurance company the life of an adult is worth more than a child. Are people outraged at insurance companies?

At the end of the day, whether it's a child or an adult, it's still a life. The adults and children killed in Beslan were innocent and defenceless against guns and bombs.
Stating that it is particularly bad that so many children were killed is kind of sick really. It implies that, say, if an adult dies in a car crash that you'd have an attitude of "ah well, at least it wasn't a child". There's something seriously wrong with that. No-one has the right to declare that one person's life is worth less than anyone else's.
thecorner - you're 30, I'm 18. So is my life worth more than yours?

[Closed Account 2]

But Russia isn't an artifical country in its present state? Countries are (supposed to be) formed by groups of people living in a certain area, ie France is populated by the French, Spain by the Spanish, Ireland by the Irish. Russia contains countless ethnic minorities, it's unnatural for a country to exist like that.

Well couldn’t it be argued that Spain is populated by a variety of groups (eg Basques in the North, Galicians in the North West, Catalonians in Catalonia etc), in Italy there are German speaking minorities near the Adige, Belgium is made up of people from Flanders and Walloons (French speakers), how many different languages and ethnicities are spoken in India ? Are all these countries unnatural, if that’s the case then its very hard to suggest that many countries are natural. Take Britain for example, you’ve got the Welsh, Scots, and the two groups (so to speak) in Northern Ireland, so is it an unnatural country ? If so then perhaps England is unnatural too given there are clusters of different communities in various locations, eg us in areas in North West London, People from the subcontinent in various towns in North of England etc etc ... Its a bit of a dangerous example to claim Russia is an unnatural country ? What other countries are "unnatural" ? Australia, or given its variety of ethnicities the USA perhaps ?

Also what is your solution? That Russia should split up or give up its Southern Regions? If it does that then it’s almost certain that there would be a series of mini wars right across the region. I would also say with a high degree of certainty that areas like Chechnya would descend into even more anarchy and it would be highly likely that the country would become an Al-Qaeda client state.

As for the tactics used by Chechen independence fighters, ye get nutcases all over the world. We Irish did worse to each other in the Civil War. It's sad fact of life that you'll get people like that in situations such as Chechnya. Al Qaeda will get involved if they see a 'market' for their brand of Islamic fundamentalism, I think it's unfair to judge the entire Chechen cause on the actions of extremists.

See I think that their tactics are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from anything seen in the Civil War. There was a lot of unpleasantness in the Civil War, and there may well have been many executions but I don’t remember reading anything about habitual beheading, removing prisoners eyes etc which all seem to be common place in Chechnya. You may be right to say it’s unfair to judge the entire Chechen cause on the actions of extremists. But I feel that the leaders' (especially they way Baseeyev linked up with Khattab) solicitation of Al-Qaeda / Islamic fundamentalism was a dangerous and foolhardy decision. The international jihadis are akin to Nazis, everywhere they go they murder, rape and destroy just about anything they can (including civilians who are on their "own" side) and any regime or group who uses their services I will only have the utmost contempt for. The East Timorese, Tibetans, and even the Sudanese minorities in Darfur dont resort to calling in Barbarians when faced with regimes as bad as or worse than Putins, so why should the Chechens.

[brendy_éire]

Well couldn’t it be argued that Spain is populated by a variety of groups (eg Basques in the North, Galicians in the North West, Catalonians in Catalonia etc), in Italy there are German speaking minorities near the Adige, Belgium is made up of people from Flanders and Walloons (French speakers), how many different languages and ethnicities are spoken in India ? Are all these countries unnatural

For the most part, Spain is populated by the Spanish, although there's good arguments for independence for Galicia, the Basque region and Catalonia.
My point is that countries are formed by a people coming together. For example, the Italians are a recognisable people. They speak Italian, they share a culture, thus have their own country. Even before the creation of Italy, the Italian people were still aknowledged as existing. There are English people, Scottish, Welsh, French people. We recognise what it is to be French or English. We Irish recognise what we have in common, and it makes sense in our heads that we should be a country.
The US, Australia, Canada, etc are artificial countries. There's no such thing as an 'American'. There's no 'American people' as such (well, except the native Americans, but there's not many of them left nowadays). America is just a melting pot of different cultures, it's not a 'people'. For this reason, I believe American nationalism is entirely contrived.
Russia, in its present state, includes many enthic minorities, which in my view, is unnatural.

Also what is your solution? That Russia should split up or give up its Southern Regions?

It could give these regions independence, ensuring they have a working government.
Or, create a confederation of these states. A structure similar to that of the EU, where there is a central government, and the states have a good degree of power over their own affairs, exercised through their own parliaments. Allow the states to have fiscal power, and give them things like their own national football team and leagues. Giving peolpe a way of expressing their nationality can appease those demanding full independence, similiar to what is done in Scotland and Wales.

The East Timorese, Tibetans, and even the Sudanese minorities in Darfur dont resort to calling in Barbarians when faced with regimes as bad as or worse than Putins, so why should the Chechens.

Well to be fair, you can't blame the entire Chechen population for calling in the nutcases. I'd guess most Chechens feel like most nationalists in the north do. They want independence, but would rather not use violence to get it.

[BobbySands]

Brendy. Gotta say I agree. A life is a life. The deaths of these children is awful as are the deaths of the the american soldiers in Iraq. As are the deaths of the countless Iraqis. I hope no one tries to make political hay out of this tragedy although I'd assume GW Bush already has speechwriters trying to work out an angle.