"Who would you have replace him?"Originally Posted by peadar1987
That's your first mistake. And quite frankly it's been the mistake of the manager for quite some time now. Similarly you can blame the manager for continuing to select Ward. Clark, Andrews, Pearce, Duffy are all better options at center back, yes Andrews. But that's not the point. The point is that O'Shea is not of international standard, never has been. Yet we persist with him. He could never be accused of being a Richard Dunne for his bravery. He has absolutely nothing going for him as a defender. If you didn't see that long before he gave away two goals to the Italians at Croke Park, then what can I say.
And if any of the quartet I mentioned above failed to work out then I would go down the divisions to find a proper defender for the job. You just can't keep playing a sub standard player because there's no one else. There's always someone else.
Is Simon Cox a winger?
Is Darren O'Dea a better player than Ciaran Clarke?
Should Seamus Coleman have been blooded earlier?
The players were poor, but this is not a once off. Don't kid yourself, we were getting the same performances when the "golden generation" were in situ as well.
Yeah man, they call gambling a disease, but it's the only disease where you can win a bunch of money.
Spot on mate. We have a batch of young players that are talented and can make a difference if they are trusted. Trap has never picked his best 11 but he got away with it by getting results. Now he is not playing his best team, is being humiliated in every game and continues to have the habit of alienating a big proportion of our team.
People who defend him are not winning extra kudos for being loyal Irish supporters, they are just displaying extraordinary naivety.
That's the walloping that's been coming for some time, as many people have noted.
Have to say I didn't think we even played all that badly in the first half. We looked reasonably comfortable with them playing in front of us - but then they stepped up and scored two goals.
Bit shellshocked but have a couple of observations - we were two down, came out in the second half for five minutes and had a go. Cox brought a decent stop from Neuer an we won a corner. Then Long came on and we went 442. And then we conceded three goals in ten minutes.
So fair to say the system wasn't to blame so much as the change? Charlie Darwin mentioned earlier in the thread about this being what happens when we try a system three years too late (a fair point). But I thought we looked far more competitive under the new system than the old one.
Germany appeared to score with every chance they got and some of the goals were absolute clinkers, even if our closing down was pathetic.
Also not sure how it came across on TV, but Germany were pretty excellent even if they were in 3rd gear. I really don't think people should get bogged down in selection - Long, Wilson, Clark, Brady could all have played and it wouldn't have made a difference imo. Hell we could've had the whole squad on the pitch and we'd have been beaten heavily.
The biggest problem for me - bigger than selection and system even - is belief and attitude, because that's exactly the ingredient Trap was providing. Belief that the team would resist the opposition at any cost, not concede goals, be hard to beat. And that belief is gone, probably forever under the current manager. It went as soon as we were smashed by Croatia in Poznan.
Tonight we were a couple down, but a bit of leadership (we were lacking in caps - partly down to injuries, partly down to players not being blooded) could've stemmed the tide. What's really troubling is when they scored number 3, it might as well have been number 13. The players broke down completely. It happened against Spain and it happened again tonight.
That, to me, is what's totally unacceptable. Someone earlier in the thread asked when two down, if it mattered if we were beaten 5-0 - it does. It matters because it shows we completely lost belief, confidence and faith in being defensively obdurate, hard to beat and never say die.
Those qualities are some of our most crucial. Without em, we're boned. No way we're getting a result in Stockholm without some serious player rehab. And the current manager isn't the one to do it.
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 13/10/2012 at 12:29 AM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Between 2008 and 2011 Trap always seemed to pick the right team. He motivated them well and got results. It was ugly, but it worked.
But now he seems to make utterly bizarre decisions. O'Dea is a great servant, and the greatest of respect to him, but when we have regular Premier League defenders on the bench we don't need Toronto FC players anywhere near the squad. That's just one of many examples.
And the players have lost all motivation, fight and spirit. And Trap is having regular miscommunications and spats with players, when he used not to.
He wasn't like this at all before. I think he's just too old for this now. The man needs to retire. If he goes now I'll have very fond memories of him. Because he put us back on the map after the Staunton era and put a bit of pride, organisation and fight back into the team.
But if he keeps on like this, it could get worse than the Staunton era. And, in a way, this result is nearly worse than the Cyprus one. This is at home.
Last edited by brine3; 13/10/2012 at 1:04 AM.
These are the questions I was asking during and after the game also. I'd have questioned starting Ward ahead of Wilson also, but Ward performed better than O'Dea and Cox on the night, so I'll leave it at that.
Cox was totally and utterly non-existent in this game. And yet, McGeady was taken off before him. And Andy Keogh was brought on. Not Robbie Brady.
Trap has died by the sword in terms of placing faith in O'Dea for long enough when he could have given the chance to more talented players (Clark). O'Dea was shown up at last and it was not a pretty sight. He was guilty of over-hitting some long balls, not to mention the inexcusable penalty I can't quite wrap my head around. I think he hesitated when that Klose goal was on it's way in and he genuinely thought it didn't have the angle to go in, otherwise he would have slid in sooner. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but that was my judgement of it.
Walters was very good. He was isolated because Cox provided him with no support and the 3 midfielders were also hesitant to push on and provide him an outlet. On the occasions when Andrews did provide such an outlet, he was quick to relieve us of possession and hand it back to Germany. Long in place of Cox would have made more sense. When we were behind by more than one goal what hope had Long to turn the game completely on it's head? That's where Trap's logic fell down in relation to Long as an impact sub.
On the issue of the 'Golden Generation' (per sé), I wonder did Trap's presence at manager lead to the decisions made by Given and Duff? Both are quite willing to keep playing club football for as long as they can, as shown by Duff's comments and Given's contract.
In relation to the player pool issue, Irish teams always made up for what they lacked in talent with a stronger spirit. I was speaking to a Belgian chap at the weekend and I was saying what a great team his national side had. Straight away the guy responded "Yes, yes, we have great players but they don't care about the national team. They are not like the Irish with their fighting spirit." The attitude was wrong there tonight. Given that we could pick a team of Premier League players yet be beaten by Germany by 5 goals, we should be doing something even worse to a Faroese team. The gap between the cream of the Bundesliga and the mediocrity of the Premier League must surely be far less pronounced than the gap between the latter and the cream of the Faroese league. But, frankly, the Faroe Islands hold no relevance to this discussion.
You make a valid point about the lack of fighting spirit. It was clearly lacking in the Euros, and I find myself repeating myself, but the last time I saw this spirit was against the French on that infamous night in Paris. I remember Lawrence in particular work his socks off to defend and then he worked hard to go forward.
Someone needs to re-energise this team and if it means starting the rebuilding process now, so be it. We are becoming whipping boys and even if it means we continue to lose as we rebuild, to see progress in our attitude and performance would do for me at this stage. TBH, if we, by some miracle, qualified for the WC Finals I would envisage a repeat of the Euro performance under the present regime. I can't believe I am saying this, but I would rather we didn't qualify if we continue to play this way.
Have to say, up until that dosy challenge by O'Shea on Reus in the 31st minute I was pleasantly surprised by what I thought was a decent start to the game for Ireland. I thought Andrews and Walters acquitted themselves manfully from start to finish and should be exempt from criticism....
"It's always darkest before the dawn, and I can assure you, the dawn IS coming" District Attorney Harvey Dent 2008 RIP
I had to leave just before half time and had been impressed by the 1sthalf hour, despite Ronnie Whingin's constant attempts to diminish Ireland's efforts (maybe he figures he's a shoo in for the job). 1-6 (not 0-6 as RTE had it on the screen) was bad, very bad against a top team like Germany, but reading the opinions above it's largely down to the coaches loyalty to players. O'Dea wasn't great from what I watched, Ward was good, Cox was quiet and our attacks and play (for the 1st half hour) were good and inventive. But this boils down, yet again, to the British educated players who revert to type when the screw is turned.
When I hear Dunphy saying he'd welcome McCarthy back? Jesus, this is insane. Our meeja are a disgrace, they're looking for another sacrificial lamb and they're lining up excuses. And laughing Bill is loving it, with his "understanding" being zero, and twists of truth it's a simple 3 ring circus.
Loved Dunphy's comparison of trap to Brian Cody. I wonder now if Trap goes to matches will the meeja shut it? Not a chance. We don't want a manager, we want to be back with the motherland.
Ah I anticipated the usual RTE pantomime so earlier this week I adjusted my dish to pick up German tv instead. Switched over briefly to RTE at half-time - seriously OTT stuff at half time anyways. I thought Billo was retiring after Olympics - please retire you nasty ****-stirrer! Basically the RTE panel are a bunch of men who wish they were 20 years younger. After a hard days work, I don't need to be further depressed by their misgivings on life in general.
P.S. Dunphy always plays the Hurling analogy to appeal to the GAA heads outside the pale. Pathetic stuff... feck Saorview, I'm sticking with German satellite tv
I lost an hour of my life this morning (not to mention work) watching back RTE's wrap up, the only thing I can happily say is that the post-match radio analysis was far better, more even and without the hysterics stirred by Bill. Bill is a pr man, he has conflicts of interest, same as Terry Prone and her harpies (not to mentoin her husband). Of course she needs the income to pay for the botox and other miracles of nature, but christ, RTE is so disgraceful (tv especially) in it's behaviour. I know it was pointed out time and again by the bitter old hack Harris, and I never would disagree with him in how RTE is run, but they have their heads so far up the backsides of the motherland's behaviour it's not funny. I'm not watching football on RTE so long as Bill is presenting. #billmustgo
Thought the radio summation was more informative as well.
Bill like Trap you have had your day, give someone else a chance.
Yeah man, they call gambling a disease, but it's the only disease where you can win a bunch of money.
Well, where are all the "results are king" Trap supporters now? All those content with beating Estonia and the pummelling in Moscow?
The results, organisation, spirit... all gone. And this didn't start in June or last night either.
Please go, Trap, please give us our pride back. Would even take Kerr's near miss in 2006 WCQ ahead of this any day.
Laughable post - stick to your man OR NOT!!! Lots on here declaring him as the messiah - ha ha. Muck football for the ole ole brigade
He's as much a winger as Robbie Brady is an international caliber player who was the only alternative.
Yes O'Dea is better, Clark is the flakiest of flaky defenders whos also playing in a dreadful team and has been 7th choice CB for us for a very good reason.
When exactly? Coleman had dreadful form/fitness last season and never warranted a callup. He had one good season 2 years ago when he was competing with a Man Utd RB and Duff/McGeady. Bearing in mind last night Reus and Schmelzer had a similar number of caps as Coleman, didn't see them hiding behind excuses of not being blooded enough.
Do we need to cycle through the entire roster and change managers before you accept these players are poor against strong opposition?
Amidst your hysteria you've forgotten that a win on Tuesday leaves our points total in the best possible situation that was realistically achievable at this point.
To everyone on here who questioned me and my opinion of Trappatoni over the last 3 and a half years,
TOLD YOU.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
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