Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 57

Thread: Catalonia march for independence

  1. #1
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    1,370
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    60
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    122
    Thanked in
    99 Posts

    Catalonia march for independence

    1.5 million on the streets of Barcelona tonight, in a march demanding a vote on independence. Even among the nationalists, the ruling CiU just wants greater autonomy, while the ERC wants a Catalan Republic. Of course, even if Madrid allowed a referendum vote, questions such as EU membership and continuing in the euro would be thorny legal issues.

  2. #2
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,834
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,216
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,563
    Thanked in
    1,765 Posts
    And hilarious.

    I think Catalonians are awful great craic. Such bull spouted when ya chat to them for their reasoning for wanting independence. It amounts to usually "Just cos"
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  3. #3
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the gutter, but looking at the stars
    Posts
    10,836
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,546
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,999
    Thanked in
    1,362 Posts
    Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..

  4. #4
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,834
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,216
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,563
    Thanked in
    1,765 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..
    It's richer now. But was it always thus?

    I love the logic applied to Canada every time Quebec open their stupid mouths...

    Basically Alberta is the financial engine of the Nation now and Ontario as the largest Province gobble up the cash. But Alberta don't "really" mind because over the years Ontario was the Nation's engine and contributed to the growth of the other Provinces. Quebec have done squat. Shut up Quebec. That's the summary of an article I read in the National Post in 2009 that stuck with me.

    Catalonia like Quebec weren't always as rich as they are now. But as soon as they have a bit of cash... vamos.

    I don't like the snooty self-serving Catalan attitude with this weird anti-Castillian vibe when you ask were things are in Castillian (Spanish) or when they go on and on and on and on about how they should be independent and how they are screwed by Madrid and how they prop up the poorer regions... blah blah blah.

    I never warmed to Barcelona as a city as a result. Much prefer Madrid.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  5. #5
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    29,746
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,276
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,492
    Thanked in
    1,547 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..
    So rich it needed a bailout last month?

    Dunno what they really expect to change in an independent Catalonia. Fewer El Clasicos too.

  6. #6
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    7,246
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,103
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,509
    Thanked in
    825 Posts
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking57.html

    Hundreds of thousands of Catalans took to the streets of Barcelona today in an unprecedented show of mass support for autonomy from Madrid, blaming Spain's economic crisis for dragging their wealthy region down.

    Surging unemployment and financial disarray have stoked a fever of separatism in Catalonia, a comparatively prosperous part of Spain whose leaders say their wealth is being sucked dry by the central government.
    ...
    Economists calculate Catalans pay at least €12 billion more in taxes per year to Madrid than they receive back for services like schools and hospitals.

    Many Catalans say the figure - difficult to calculate because of a complex system of transfers - is even higher, up to €16 billion.

  7. #7
    Reserves
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    645
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    13 Posts
    I wonder how many of the people complaining about how much money Catalonia contributes to the national exchequer would complain about higher income tax for richer individuals....

  8. #8
    Reserves
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    645
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post

    I don't like the snooty self-serving Catalan attitude with this weird anti-Castillian vibe when you ask were things are in Castillian (Spanish) or when they go on and on and on and on about how they should be independent and how they are screwed by Madrid and how they prop up the poorer regions... blah blah blah.

    I never warmed to Barcelona as a city as a result. Much prefer Madrid.
    That's exactly how I felt about Barcelona. It seemed as if everything had to be reduced to a contest with Madrid, be it football, architecture, nightlife, whatever...they're absolutely obsessed in the most petty way imaginable.

  9. #9
    International Prospect mypost's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2004
    Location
    foot.ie Night Shift
    Posts
    5,009
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    229
    Thanked in
    160 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu
    Dunno what they really expect to change in an independent Catalonia. Fewer El Clasicos too.
    Ah no, they still want to be in the Spanish League, so they can hold their propaganda rally big game against Real Madrid every year. Life in Barcelona would have no meaning if Real Madrid were not around. Quite what the French part of Catalonia makes of the prospect is open to question.

    On the wider question, they can't have independence. If Madrid gave it to them, then next would be the Basques, then the Galicians, Andalucians, etc etc, and you would have a break up of Spain similiar to that of Yugoslavia. It's up to Madrid to keep them all together, and regional chaos at bay.

  10. #10
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    17,741
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,669
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,005
    Thanked in
    3,157 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    And hilarious.

    I think Catalonians are awful great craic. Such bull spouted when ya chat to them for their reasoning for wanting independence. It amounts to usually "Just cos"
    Is that not as good a reason as any?

  11. #11
    Coach superfrank's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Erotic City
    Posts
    6,959
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    417
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    30
    Thanked in
    23 Posts
    I was reading the other day that the Basque Country is actually on the up economically (economic growth, GDP higher than the EU average, iirc), running completely contrary to the rest of Spain, yet there hasn't been a surge in the demand for independence there.

    Catalonia used to be the economic powerhouse of Spain and it's only been since the beginning of the current crisis that the Madrid region overtook it. Of course, when things were going well, they had less interest in pulling away.

    Catalans, Basques and Galicians are different culturally and linguistically from Castillians and I support their respective independence desires for those reasons.

    Also, Barca's president said the other day that they'd continue in La Liga if the region gains independence. He didn't give any good reason why, just that Barca wants to continue with it's age-old rivals. Nothing to do with loss of revenue and competitiveness or difficulty for European football. He likened it to Monaco's position in France, but, afaik, Monaco has some kind of political connection with France. Even for the likes of Derry, considering that all citizens born in NI are entitled to Irish passports, and Berwick, which is part of the same looser federation, there are some political connections between the country the team is from and the one they play in.

    I'm not sure on the specifics in the respective situations, but the only other similar situations are the likes of FC Andorra in Spain, San Marino in Italy and the Liechtensteiner teams in Switzerland. For them, though, it seems like the countries are too small to support a league of their own. To suggest that Catalonia, with 7.5m people, couldn't support a national league is ridiculous. Barca's position is based on nothing more than financial reasons.
    Last edited by superfrank; 16/09/2012 at 1:58 PM.
    Extratime.ie

    Yo te quiero, mi querida. Sin tus besos, yo soy nada.

    Abri o portão de ouro, da maquina do tempo.

    Mi mamá me hizo guapo, listo y antimadridista.

  12. #12
    Reserves ped_ped's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2009
    Location
    East Limerick
    Posts
    581
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    583
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    107
    Thanked in
    56 Posts
    You want independence beacuse you feel you're distinct, not for any overarcing reason. How many people would rather Ireland stayed with Britain and Britain just treat us a bit more fairly? A certain percantage, sure, but seriously in the minority. We sought independence because we felt we were seperate. We were allowed varying degrees of self-determination when we became the Free State - why did we become a Republic?

  13. #13
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,547
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    745
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    783
    Thanked in
    462 Posts
    A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes. It was a common opinion in Victorian Britain that the Irish were unfit to govern themselves. Now, as correct as that eventually turned out to be, the whole "white man's burden", better off with London/Madrid/Paris/Washington/whoever keeping hold of the reins argument isn't one that washes with me. Unless Catalunya were going to commit human rights abuses, if they're sufficiently in favour of independence, that's their decision to make.

  14. Thanks From:


  15. #14
    International Prospect mypost's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2004
    Location
    foot.ie Night Shift
    Posts
    5,009
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    229
    Thanked in
    160 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987
    A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes. if they're sufficiently in favour of independence, that's their decision to make.
    No it isn't. You can't just suddenly turn up one day, do a "Kosovo", then start demanding rights and recognition. It's a bit more complicated than that. Others have to have their say too, and regional consequences have to be factored into. Montenegro wanted independence from Serbia, and went through the relevant process calmly and correctly. So unlike Kosovo, they're entitled to their independence.

    Barcelona wants independence from Madrid, but what do Perpignan want? Bilbao wants independence, but what do Biarritz want? If Madrid start giving them an inch, the rest in Spain will want a mile. Not every country can have as smooth a break up as Czechoslovakia.

  16. #15
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,547
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    745
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    783
    Thanked in
    462 Posts
    I disagree. I think the only real "relevant process" is a democratic mandate from the people. Now once the people have decided that they want independence, there are right and wrong ways of going about it, that's true.

    And on the Kosovo subject, I think they're perfectly entitled to independence from Belgrade after their "ethnic cleansing" antics.

  17. Thanks From:


  18. #16
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,500
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,383
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,726
    Thanked in
    2,278 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes.
    How do we distinguish regions and peoples? Not all persons within a set defined - possibly arbitrarily - as a people will subscribe to a single orthodox. Why not go full hog and accord this right to make mistakes to individual persons?

  19. Thanks From:


  20. #17
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the gutter, but looking at the stars
    Posts
    10,836
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,546
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,999
    Thanked in
    1,362 Posts
    On the same theme as Danny- where do you draw the borders? What if sub regions of Catalonia don't like the idea and want to stay in Spain? Could they have their own vote and then remain? And what if a sub region of that sub region decided stuff the lot of ye we want to be independent of both?

    Could get pretty messy.

    And the independent state of certain sections of East Galway City won't stand for it.
    Last edited by Mr A; 18/09/2012 at 2:50 PM.

  21. Thanks From:


  22. #18
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,547
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    745
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    783
    Thanked in
    462 Posts
    Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere, I shouldn't be able to declare my flat an independent monarchy where not supporting Bray is punishable by public flogging. However, at the other end of the scale, should the Estonian people have just been happy to be ruled from Moscow? Sub-regions of Ireland ended up staying part of the UK? Should we have abandoned the idea of independence because of these regions and the potential for messiness? There's a sensible cut-off point, and it's not the exact same in every situation. However, just because there's no hard and fast rule for what constitutes a distinct ethnic group, or a nation of people, doesn't mean that things would be better if we just transferred all of the sovereign powers of every country to Berlin.

  23. #19
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,834
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,216
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,563
    Thanked in
    1,765 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Is that not as good a reason as any?
    Well my issue with these scenarios is that it's generally with how a Catalonian always instigates this conversation whether and how I must agree with them. And when I don't they get snotty and whiny.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  24. #20
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    1,370
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    60
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    122
    Thanked in
    99 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    On the same theme as Danny- where do you draw the borders? What if sub regions of Catalonia don't like the idea and want to stay in Spain? Could they have their own vote and then remain? And what if a sub region of that sub region decided stuff the lot of ye we want to be independent of both?

    Could get pretty messy.

    And the independent state of certain sections of East Galway City won't stand for it.
    That was more of an issue in Quebec, where you had clear geographic Anglophone areas that planned to break away if the referendum had passed. In Catalonia, the Spanish community is spread throughout the province, so any regional difficulty would be unlikely to arise. Mypost's mention of Montenegro is most relevant here - the UN and EU set the bar at 55%, which was just barely met, and Serbia accepted the outcome. The problem here is that when the new Spanish Constitution came in after Franco's death - it outlawed even the possibility of votes in any region, so it is the democratic principle that's at stake here, rath er than the eventual outcome.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Brazilian Independence Cup 1972
    By bwagner in forum Ireland
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06/07/2016, 8:29 PM
  2. Catalonia bans bullfighting
    By culloty82 in forum Current Affairs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 30/07/2010, 9:44 AM
  3. Kosovo declares independence
    By Poor Student in forum Current Affairs
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 27/02/2008, 3:55 AM
  4. Kosovo declares independence [OT]
    By jebus in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 19/02/2008, 2:24 PM
  5. Catalonia eat your hear out
    By SÓC in forum Cork City
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08/07/2002, 4:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •