Beecher Networks - Web Development, Hosting & Domains
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 57

Thread: Catalonia march for independence

  1. #21
    International Prospect mypost's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2004
    Location
    foot.ie Night Shift
    Posts
    5,118
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    246
    Thanked in
    175 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987
    Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere, I shouldn't be able to declare my flat an independent monarchy where not supporting Bray is punishable by public flogging. However, at the other end of the scale, should the Estonian people have just been happy to be ruled from Moscow? Sub-regions of Ireland ended up staying part of the UK? Should we have abandoned the idea of independence because of these regions and the potential for messiness? There's a sensible cut-off point, and it's not the exact same in every situation.
    Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it. And the "ethnic cleansing antics" that went on in the region over the years, were not one-sided either.

    Quote Originally Posted by culloty82
    In Catalonia, the Spanish community is spread throughout the province, so any regional difficulty would be unlikely to arise. Mypost's mention of Montenegro is most relevant here - the UN and EU set the bar at 55%, which was just barely met, and Serbia accepted the outcome. The problem here is that when the new Spanish Constitution came in after Franco's death - it outlawed even the possibility of votes in any region, so it is the democratic principle that's at stake here, rath er than the eventual outcome.
    Even if votes were permitted, the other issue is that it's not simply the Spanish side of the region Barcelona's decision to make. The rest of Catalonia seems quite happy living in France and Spain.

  2. #22
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    771
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    801
    Thanked in
    473 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it. And the "ethnic cleansing antics" that went on in the region over the years, were not one-sided either.
    Before the breakup of the Soviet Union, Estonia had been a nation state for 21 years in total, from 1918 until 1939. Before that it had been part of the Russian Empire, East Prussia, a Lithuanian-Polish confederacy, and Sweden, among others, as a region with significant linguistic, cultural, and ethnic heritage of its own. So a bit like Catalunya is today. Or a bit like Kosovo, which is primarily ethnic Albanian, whereas Serbia is, well, Serbian, as I'm sure you know.

    Ireland hadn't been independent in 800 years before 1922.

    Nations have always emerged and disappeared. Deciding whether a people have the right to self-determination based on whether or not they was a Grand Duchy with significant autonomy in that region in 1722 isn't exactly the best way of going about things.


    Even if votes were permitted, the other issue is that it's not simply the Spanish side of the region Barcelona's decision to make. The rest of Catalonia seems quite happy living in France and Spain.
    Again, the potential for things to be less than perfectly clean isn't the best reason for keeping Catalunya part of Spain. The path to an independent Catalunya, if that's what significant proportions of the people in the region wanted, would probably involve very complicated negotiations about which regions stayed in Spain, which stayed in France, and which wanted to join the Catalan Republic, or whatever they called it. The fact that Perpignan might well choose of their own free will to remain part of France shouldn't be a deal-breaker for secession of other regions from Spain, in the same way that the choice of the Six Counties to remain part of the UK shouldn't have meant that Galway, Cork, and Tipperary should have their wish for independence ignored.

  3. Thanks From:


  4. #23
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    18,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,890
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,310
    Thanked in
    3,368 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it.
    I'm sure they're devastated.

  5. Thanks From:


  6. #24
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On a dodgy bus
    Posts
    13,251
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,203
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,969
    Thanked in
    2,337 Posts
    Most of all, I love how they show their support for each other by not singing their national anthem.
    https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.

  7. #25
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    2,468
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    205
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    258
    Thanked in
    201 Posts
    A regional election on November 25th will show where things stand. Meanwhile, Venice wants to break away from Italy.

  8. #26
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    18,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,890
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,310
    Thanked in
    3,368 Posts


    Catalans have handed a majority to parties backing independence from Spain, strengthening the region's drive for a referendum on secession in defiance of Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, the first exit poll showed.Catalan president Artur Mas, who called early elections to force the debate on independence, won between 54 and 57 of the 135 seats in the regional assembly for his Convergencia i Unio party, according to estimate by Spanish broadcaster TV3, funded by the regional Catalan government.

    The Separatist Catalan Republican Left won between 20 and 23 seats. Two smaller parties that also back a referendum secured at least 15 seats between them.
    ...
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking17.html

  9. #27
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    And now that that's all over nothing will happen.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  10. #28
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    2,468
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    205
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    258
    Thanked in
    201 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    And now that that's all over nothing will happen.
    Sunday's "poll" may have been a sham, but it has left the region facing two potential follow-ups: Either Rajoy, the Spanish PM allows a real referendum, or local elections, focused on independence will be held, after which a nationalist government would simply declare independence, so the first option seems the easier for Madrid to win.

  11. #29
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Well, my post is from 2012 above.

    And there's no way a Catalonian Govt will secede unilaterally.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  12. #30
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    So the Spanish authorities doing their best to increase support-levels for Catalan independence.

    Some disgraceful scenes coming in from Barcelona.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  13. Thanks From:


  14. #31
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    5,175
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    259
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    812
    Thanked in
    581 Posts
    What does Catalonia secession look like in the aftermath of a vote like this? Will Madrid have to occupy the province with police?
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  15. #32
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Pretty much what they would have to do. If they were reasoned in their response before now they wouldn't have to go down that road but watching the Guardia Civil attacking Firefighters and having a standoff with Catalan Police is certainly disturbing. Rajoy is certainly out of his depth.

    The EU response will be telling. A lot of leaders around Europe nervous. Fair dues to Charles Michel (Belgian PM) coming out with something.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  16. #33
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Foreign Office response:

    "The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."

    You couldn't make it up.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  17. Thanks From:


  18. #34
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    So the Spanish authorities doing their best to increase support-levels for Catalan independence.

    Some disgraceful scenes coming in from Barcelona.
    Shocking scenes indeed. It's crazy that the Spanish government think taking a hard-line will help, especially in the information age. History has shown time and time again that such an approach only increases sympathy and support for those being subjected to state violence.

    Paradoxically, the clamp-down - an attempt to suppress the independence movement - has actually given it wider exposure, à la the Streisand effect, than it probably would have garnered had the government not been so intransigent.

  19. #35
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Absolutely correct. It smacks of sheer stupidity. I'm sure the reasoning was to corral protesters (voters) and get them to fight back legitimising force against them.

    It's backfired spectacularly.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  20. #36
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Great website for keep up-to-date.

    http://spain.liveuamap.com/
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  21. #37
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Colm Tóibín (who lives in Barcelona, to the best of my knowledge) with a good piece in the Guardian on the present situation and the region's fractured history with Madrid: https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...lan-separatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Colm Tóibín
    Madrid is not itself prepared to make a detailed case against the vote being held, but rather is insisting that it is illegal, as though the law were something that could not be changed. It is curious also that Madrid politicians have not been travelling the length and breadth of Catalonia – as, say, Gordon Brown did in Scotland in the runup to the independence referendum there – to make the argument against the referendum and against Catalan independence. Why have these politicians stayed in Madrid? Why did we not hear from them on the independence question in Catalonia this summer? Why have they offered coercion rather than argument?

    ...

    The success of the policy on language is the main reason why Spanish politicians have not been visiting towns and villages in Catalonia, and not speaking on radio or TV to make the case against the referendum. Catalonia, for them, has become terra incognita. If Rajoy or his attorney general were to visit the heartland, they would find that no one had heard a political discussion in the Spanish language before, and they would notice also a strangeness, a sense that they themselves were in a foreign country.

  22. Thanks From:


  23. #38
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Current update 2154:

    Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'

    Carles Puigdemont, Catalan’s leader, has announced that the region has won the right to independence following today’s referendum.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  24. #39
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    From RTVE: Taking the Generalitat count as valid, with 95% of the votes counted, 90.09% of the participants voted Yes to the independence of Catalonia (2,262,424 votes) ; He has not harvested 7.87% of the votes (176,566) and there have been 40,686 blank ballots (2.03%) and 20,729 null votes (0.89%). It is striking that the sum of these percentages exceeds 100% of the votes; in particular, gives 100.88%.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  25. #40
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    The BBC reported that turn-out was 42.3 per cent. I'm guessing the Spanish government clamp-down affected turn-out quite a bit with the Catalan authorities claiming that 319 of about 2,300 polling stations had been shut down. The Spanish government counter-claimed that 92 stations had been closed.

    Catalan officials have also claimed that more than 750 people were injured.

    Meanwhile, Gerard Pique condemned the brutality of of the Spanish government and offered his resignation from the Spanish national team if his presence would be deemed problematic in a tearful interview after Barca's game against Las Palmas today (which was played behind closed doors in the Nou Camp): https://www.theguardian.com/football...n-independence


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Brazilian Independence Cup 1972
    By bwagner in forum Ireland
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06/07/2016, 9:29 PM
  2. Catalonia bans bullfighting
    By culloty82 in forum Current Affairs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 30/07/2010, 10:44 AM
  3. Kosovo declares independence
    By Poor Student in forum Current Affairs
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 27/02/2008, 4:55 AM
  4. Kosovo declares independence [OT]
    By jebus in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 19/02/2008, 3:24 PM
  5. Catalonia eat your hear out
    By SÓC in forum Cork City
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08/07/2002, 5:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •