Champions League 2012-13

[OwlsFan]

2002/03 - 2011/12	ENGLAND	SPAIN	ITALY	GERMANY
Winners	NIL	5	NIL	NIL
Runners-up	2	2	NIL	1
No. of winning clubs	NIL	3	NIL	NIL
Semi finalists	4	11	3	5
Quarter finalists	8	15	5	11

The trouble about the Europa League stats is that they represent how well the reserve teams of the sides (English anyway) have got on in that competition. In other words it is the League Cup of European Football.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I'm not sure they tell much of a story. The three Spanish sides which have won the competition, Atletico, Valencia and Sevilla are probably most comparable to Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs in the PL. Arsenal have been in the Champions League knock-outs for the past 13 seasons now so they never had an opportunity to do anything in the Europa. Liverpool have had extensive runs in the Champions League also and would have probably won the Europa instead of Atletico in 2010 only for a late Forlan goal at Anfield in the semi final. Spurs and two time winners Sevilla had a decent battle in the 2007 quarter final. Middlesbrough and Fulham are the two PL clubs to actually reach the final and they would be more comparable with Spanish sides likes Levante or Betis. What I mean is that Sevilla and Atletico beating Boro and Fulham would be about as expected as Arsenal beating Levante.

For the majority of the past decade I would come to this conclusion:

Barcelona > Man Utd
Real Madrid < Chelsea
Valencia < Arsenal
Atletico Madrid < Liverpool
Sevilla > Spurs

As for the rest of the clubs we don't really have any stats to base assumptions on.

[geysir]

The stats over the last 10 seasons are one thing. If you look at a pattern over 20 years it shows a gradual rise, followed by good years and now that prominence is being rattled. I think the EPL managed to catch up with the other leagues and perform well, in a bubble of debt and tv subscriber money, now the other leagues have moved ahead and the football being played in the BL, La Liga and Serie A, is way ahead of what you get in the EPL.

The gulf between the EPL and the other top european leagues was in evidence last season, even if the stats show that Chelsea won the CL. That gulf looks to have widened this season. I wouldn't brush away the manner in which Man City and Man U were outplayed last season in the EL, as a league cup type performance. It remains to be seen what happens to the EPL clubs still left in European competition this season. As I see it, Man U are one of the weakest of the group winners and weaker than some of the 2nd place teams.

[DeLorean]

Not sure about that Geysir really. Things don't change that fast and it's only about 18 months since United hammered Schalke 6-1 in the Champions League semi final. You can't brush that away any more than the Athletic Bilbao defeat last season. There's a bit of a buzz about Dortmund right now, but United have been pretty much a constant force in recent times. It remains to be seen whether they are one of the weaker group winners but I think that's a harsh enough statement about a club that have contested three of the last five finals. Only Barcelona from the group winners have earned the right to be considered stronger in my opinion. Dortmund, Bayern and Juve are obviously strong too though along with Real and maybe Shakhtar from the second placed teams.

[squareball]

If you take the leagues themselves, then the Spanish league is fairly uncompetitive in terms of possible winners. In the last years there have only been two winners (Barca and Real), whereas the German League has had three winners (Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg) as has the Premier League (Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City). But the sterile nature of the competitiveness of La Liga is really exposed when you look at the number of unique teams that have finished in the top 3 in the last 5 years. In Spain there are only 4 teams who've finished in the top thee (Barca, Real, Villareal and Valencia), the Premier League is little better with 4 unique top 3 finishing teams in 5 years (Man Utd, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Arsenal), but the German Bundesliga has 7 (Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, Bremen, Schalke, Leverkusen and Stuttgart). If you want an exciting league where you cannot easily predict any of the top 3, let alone the order of it, then Germany is far ahead of Spain.

Since 2002/03 there have been 11 teams who have finished in the top 4 and 3 different winners in La Liga. In the same period in England there has been 8 teams and 4 different winners. Bundesliga has 10 teams and 5 different winners. Serie A has 10 different top 4 teams and 3 winners. This shows there is very little between the competitiveness between leagues in Spain, Germany, England and Italy. I took the top 4 because they are the Champions league places. Arsenal have made the top 4 every season but are no where near being title contenders for the last few seasons. In Spain there is a big gap from 2nd and 3rd over the last few years but the rest of the league is more competitive with Villareal going from CL qualifiers to being relegated the following season. In Spain the top two are a lot stronger than most teams and would probably be that far ahead of the rest if they were in any other league.

[geysir]

It's just an opinion and much remains to be decided on the pitch to support that opinion.

No doubt, when the opinion has proven to have (more) merit, we can discuss the decline of the EPL at a future date

[Charlie Darwin]

I agree with geysir. I think the only thing keeping sides like Man U and Chelsea up is the fact they have the money to attract world class players in their prime, as opposed to clubs like Dortmund that actually produce them.

[DeLorean]

Yeah that's a given. The Dortmund model is much more commendable but I was speaking purely from a 'who are better' point of view. As Geysir says, time will tell... well it might not but it should give us a better idea.

[Closed Account 2]

Since 2002/03 there have been 11 teams who have finished in the top 4 and 3 different winners in La Liga. In the same period in England there has been 8 teams and 4 different winners. Bundesliga has 10 teams and 5 different winners. Serie A has 10 different top 4 teams and 3 winners. This shows there is very little between the competitiveness between leagues in Spain, Germany, England and Italy. I took the top 4 because they are the Champions league places. Arsenal have made the top 4 every season but are no where near being title contenders for the last few seasons. In Spain there is a big gap from 2nd and 3rd over the last few years but the rest of the league is more competitive with Villareal going from CL qualifiers to being relegated the following season. In Spain the top two are a lot stronger than most teams and would probably be that far ahead of the rest if they were in any other league.

A bit of an over-simplification. For all but last year, only the top 3 German clubs had the chance of the CL. The teams that finished 4th in that 9 years included teams as diverse as Stuttgart, HSV, Hertha, Bayern, Hannover - all missed out on the CL in those respective years. Incidently last year Italy fell below Germany in the UEFA club ranking and so it was Lazio who missed out in 4th.

While a lot of people mention how Sky pumps the Premier League out, and how heavily it's advertised on tv. It should also be said that Sky also pumps La Liga out nearly as frequently (around 3-4 matches of both each weekend) albeit with marginally less publicity and with the sterile and wooden Scott Minto struggling valiantly with his autocue. La Liga is almost as available to a passive fan via TV as the Premier League, and is a lot more readily available than the Bundesliga or Serie A.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Despite their 'mediocre' CL record, in the long-term German football's surely in a more healthy financial state than their English counterparts.
Though the latter have attracted some amazing players on occasion...

[Closed Account 2]

The draw:

Galatasaray v FC Schalke
Celtic v Juventus
Arsenal v Bayern Munich
Shakthar Donetsk v Borussia Dortmund
AC Milan v Barcelona
Real Madrid v Manchester United
Valencia v Paris Saint-Germain
FC Porto v Malaga

Some good matches there, for me Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round, probably the two most dyanmic sides in the Champions League based on the group stage this season. The English teams look to have got hard games, Madrid and Bayern are top draw sides, but Bayern slipped a bit in their first match to BATE, and also at this stage last year they wobbled away in Basle (before smashing them at home). I think every team winning the above matches will be hoping for Porto/Malaga in the next round (or maybe Schalke v Galatasaray).

[BonnieShels]

The draw:

Galatasaray v FC Schalke
Celtic v Juventus
Arsenal v Bayern Munich
Shakthar Donetsk v Borussia Dortmund
AC Milan v Barcelona
Real Madrid v Manchester United
Valencia v Paris Saint-Germain
FC Porto v Malaga

Some good matches there, for me Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round, probably the two most dyanmic sides in the Champions League based on the group stage this season. The English teams look to have got hard games, Madrid and Bayern are top draw sides, but Bayern slipped a bit in their first match to BATE, and also at this stage last year they wobbled away in Basle (before smashing them at home). I think every team winning the above matches will be hoping for Porto/Malaga in the next round (or maybe Schalke v Galatasaray).

See geysir it's not just me!

[geysir]

Yes Bonnie, based on this season.
I do note your observation skills are lacking, and also earlier in the thread when I commended Dortmund as a transformed team from last year's CL efforts. Meanwhile, you were hiding sheepishly in the background, afraid to play the Dortmund card a second time in a row, after last year's embarrassment.

[BonnieShels]

Yes Bonnie, based on this season.
I do note your observation skills are lacking, and also earlier in the thread when I commended Dortmund as a transformed team from last year's CL efforts. Meanwhile, you were hiding sheepishly in the background, afraid to play the Dortmund card a second time in a row, after last year's embarrassment.

I thought I commented on your commendation of Dortmund. And I'm sure I mentioned something about my disastrous judgement last year. I also believe I may have said something on several occasions this season. Though it's hard to remember, what with life going on outside of here. Lighten up man It's Christmas and the world may end tomorrow. Win win!

[geysir]

I am light or already lit.

Got you on the defensive fast enough.

[DeLorean]

Great draw. Tie of the round obviously is Man Utd v Real Madrid (I don't care if it is a Sky Sports wet dream).

[BonnieShels]

I am light or already lit.

Got you on the defensive fast enough.

What's the slowest acceptable speed of defence?

[DeLorean]

Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round

I know you seem to have a particular interest in Russian/Ukrainian football. It's been a pretty poor few weeks PR-wise. Luiz Adriano's disgraceful antics against Nordsjælland and Zenit's biggest fan group's racist requests. The Zenit thing, in particular, must be a fairly big embarrassment with St. Petersburg being one of the potential host cities for the 2018 WC. This should surely put them out of the running?

Incidentally, Liverpool have been drawn against them in the Europa League last 32.

[BonnieShels]

There is no way given St Petersburg is Putin's hometown that it will not be a host city.

[DeLorean]

There is no way given St Petersburg is Putin's hometown that it will not be a host city.

Didn't know that. Could be fun if Ghana or some crowd are drawn there!