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Thread: Petition for the Rights of all Citizens to Vote in Presidential Elections

  1. #121
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    I will probably vote against it.

    Also, there will be a referendum on lowering the voting age to 16...I think I'd vote against that too.

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  3. #122
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    At the same time, I couldn't care less who votes in a presidential election as it's probably the most pointless position for anyone to hold in Ireland.
    Head of club licencing process at the FAI surely.

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  5. #123
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Not sure about that one myself. How does one measure the metric of being mentally/emotionally capable of having the franchise? It seems that much of the western world has decided 18 is it just because that's when one traditionally finishes school and leaves the family home, but it seems a tad out-dated a way of measuring it. There are plenty of politically engaged 16 year olds who would vote, probably more who wouldn't. But what's the negative to having it reduced to 16?

    All the others mooted seem fairly straightforward, regards "womens place in the home", blasphemy and elected mayors.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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  7. #124
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Including Irish Passport holders North of the Border?
    Irish nationals north of the border were and have been excluded or left marooned from the civic affairs of the independent Irish state not strictly by choice but by chance of geography on account of the imposition of a line of partition against their will (and against the democratically-expressed will of the rest of the nation, in fact), so I concur with you; I don't think it'd be fair to just lump them in with Irish nationals who have decided to emigrate abroad (if distinction is going to be drawn between one group of Irish nationals and another group for the purposes of denying one of those groups a vote in presidential elections, that is).

    That's not to play down the hardship and undesirable economic forces that impel citizens to emigrate, but is it reasonable to expect northern nationals to up-root themselves from their homes, families, relations, communities and/or land north of the border, were they've called home for generations, if not centuries, and move south in order to be entitled to vote for their president?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    I'm also with Stu on this one, and think representation in elections should be tied to residency and contribution to the state, with acknowledgement of obvious exceptions.
    Considering the president is an official representative of the nation, I personally think it would be fitting that all members of the nation have a chance to elect him. Consider payment to the state for an Irish passport the consideration or contribution made in return for a vote perhaps?

    I only draw the distinction between northern nationals and nationals abroad in the other paragraphs above in order to challenge the idea of classing the two as effectively identical if a category of nationals are indeed to be excluded, but (as stated) my own position would be to not exclude any Irish nationals from presidential elections. I do accept that Dáil elections, which are localised, are a different matter, although I have heard it proposed that northern nationals be permitted to vote for a specific TD who would represent their interests in the state and I would certainly be open to the idea if it was viable.

  8. #125
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Not sure about that one myself. How does one measure the metric of being mentally/emotionally capable of having the franchise? It seems that much of the western world has decided 18 is it just because that's when one traditionally finishes school and leaves the family home, but it seems a tad out-dated a way of measuring it. There are plenty of politically engaged 16 year olds who would vote, probably more who wouldn't. But what's the negative to having it reduced to 16?

    All the others mooted seem fairly straightforward, regards "womens place in the home", blasphemy and elected mayors.
    Any cut-off point based on age is going to be somewhat arbitrary. Even with an age of 16, some politically engaged 15 year olds would be excluded.

    If people can put forward an argument that 18 is in fact outdated, and that evidence suggests that a majority of 16 year olds are politically engaged and informed, I'll certainly consider it.

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  10. #126
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    The fact remains, the majority of 16 year olds are not mature enough to make balanced decisions to properly affect their futures. I'd even go as far as saying the same about the majority of 18 year olds.

    There's always going to be a large amount of 16 year olds well informed and politically engaged, but not enough for me to say I think all 16 year olds should be allowed to vote. I feel sorry for those who are mature enough, but their time will come. They've only two years to wait.

    I know at that age, I'd always have considered myself someone who kept up to date with the world around me, read the newspapers, read books, and watched the news every evening as a 16 year old. But when I look back now, I'd never say I was mature enough to be allowed a vote in any sort of election when I was 16, only gaining any sort of real maturity when I went into my twenties. I shudder to think of myself as a 16 year old having had any say in a general election for example.

  11. #127
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    The fact remains, the majority of 16 year olds are not mature enough to make balanced decisions to properly affect their futures. I'd even go as far as saying the same about the majority of 18 year olds
    Sorry for the slight pedantry, but isn't that subjective opinion rather than objective fact?

    My own guess based on quite a lot of anecdotage as a regular local Council candidate: most parties communicate with voters using leaflets etc. that imply many people don't vote based on balanced decisions. The leaflets are very localised, for a low reading age and so on.

    Any age is arbitrary: 16 is more inclusive than 18. Similarly, we involve uninterested/ unintelligent/ p*sstaking adults and all. If the pollsters want to scientifically survey different voting patterns fine, but for me previous point outweighs this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
    Irish nationals north of the border were and have been excluded or left marooned from the civic affairs of the independent Irish state not strictly by choice but by chance of geography on account of the imposition of a line of partition against their will (and against the democratically-expressed will of the rest of the nation, in fact)
    Those citizens have been excluded (from voting for a Pres or similar) because that's what a century of Southern governments broadly backed by public opinion wanted. Geographical accident or nasty partition are incidental to this. (And by association, the democratically-expressed will is rather different from what you claim).
    Last edited by Gather round; 03/10/2017 at 5:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Certainly, none of the big three parties would send a candidate against Higgins. I would wonder if the hard-left would coalesce around a candidate though, not out of any genuine expectation of winning but to advance their agenda on a national stage in such a contest. I remember there was some displeasure from them towards Higgins over the Water Charges Bill, nonsensical or no.

    Probably won't be quite as varied as 2011 anyway.
    But Higgins is the "hard-left". Why would they put up a candidate against one of their own.
    Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.

  13. #129
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Any age is arbitrary: 16 is more inclusive than 18. Similarly, we involve uninterested/ unintelligent/ p*sstaking adults and all. If the pollsters want to scientifically survey different voting patterns fine, but for me previous point outweighs this.
    Obviously, the younger we go, the more inclusive it gets. So, without a process that identifies (and disenfranchises) uninterested/unintelligent/p*sstaking voters of all ages, we have to draw line on the right side of the inclusive/too young and uninformed line.

    More inclusive sounds good, but what is being included?

  14. #130
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    I guess, for me, I don't see what happens on the day you turn 18 that suddenly makes you capable of having the kind of rights we associate with that age, that go beyond the franchise. But then you could just as easily ask what makes 16 so special either?

    I'm not sure. I think in the end, something that gets younger people into politics from a younger age is to be encouraged, though it has to go hand in hand with education: the much maligned "CSPE" should be giving some serious dressing up if a voting age of 16 is agreed upon.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  15. #131
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    I guess, for me, I don't see what happens on the day you turn 18 that suddenly makes you capable of having the kind of rights we associate with that age, that go beyond the franchise. But then you could just as easily ask what makes 16 so special either?
    Of course no switch gets turned on on the day you turn 18. developing an informed and critical interest in politics is a process that will take time. Some may have that by 16, others may never have it. But, seeing as we don't actually test individuals for it in any way, we are left drawing an arbitrary line in terms of age.

    Again, if there is any evidence which suggests that 17 or 16 is a better place to draw that line than 18, then I'll happily look at it.

  16. #132
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Those citizens have been excluded (from voting for a Pres or similar) because that's what a century of Southern governments broadly backed by public opinion wanted. Geographical accident or nasty partition are incidental to this.
    Partition preceded said exclusion, which wouldn't have happened without partition, so I don't think you could say partition is incidental. Partition was the primary cause of it.

    (And by association, the democratically-expressed will is rather different from what you claim).
    I was referring to the 1918 general election, where pro-independence candidates won 73 of the 105 available Irish seats whilst standing on an independence platform.

  17. #133
    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Partition preceded said exclusion, which wouldn't have happened without partition, so I don't think you could say partition is incidental. Partition was the primary cause of it.



    I was referring to the 1918 general election, where pro-independence candidates won 73 of the 105 available Irish seats whilst standing on an independence platform.
    If one believes as I do that the people of Ireland are sovereign I'm not sure the undemocratic charge is fair these days. Allow me to explain with use of a quick timeline.

    1916: Easter Rising and Proclamation
    1918: SF go the people with a pledge to give effect to the proclamation and establish the Dail. Receive an overwhelming democratic mandate from the people and establish Dáil Éireann
    1921: Ireland is illegitimately partitioned without a mandate granted by the people through a national election or referendum.
    1998: The Good Friday agreement receives an overwhelming democratic mandate (85%) from the people at a referendum.

    This all hangs on the question of whether the people of Ireland are sovereign or not. I'd hold it to be one of those self evident truths that they are. If the people of Ireland were capable of retroactively legitimising the 1916 Proclamation at the 1918 election, then they must also be capable of retroactively legitimising partition at the 1998 referendum.

    That's not to say that partition wasn't a very obvious example of gerrymandering or wasn't completely illegitimate for 77 years. But that democratic loose end is now tied up in my opinion.

    With that being said, I think I should get a vote for our president by virtue of being an Irish citizen living in the north. The GFA which the sovereign people of Ireland voted for also guaranteed Irish citizenship to northerners. I'd hold it to be another of those self evident truths that the votes of all citizens who have reached the age of majority should have equal weight among a sovereign people. Therefore i think i believe northerners should be allowed to vote on constitutional amendments.

    I would accept that I should have no say on issues of taxation or public expenditure in the 26 counties, as I won't usually be subject to the taxes levied, or use the services provided. However the Oireachtas does a lot of things that don't involve significant levels of taxation or expenditure. For that reason i think it would make a lot of sense to loosely follow the structure of Congress in the USA, having a lower house elected by the people of the 26 counties with competency for taxation and expenditure, and an upper house with competency for non-finance issues elected by the people of all 32 counties.

    Aside from this being more democratic in my opinion, it could also provide a vehicle through which to continue to connect northerners to the EU post-Brexit, and give the Seanad a reason for being and something constructive to do with it's time.
    Last edited by backstothewall; 05/10/2017 at 1:19 AM.
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  19. #134
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Not about presedential elections specifically, but still relevant.

    A Belfast student who wanted the right to vote in the referendum has lost her case in the high court.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...ndum-1.3468268

    A Belfast student who claimed she should be entitled to vote in the Eighth Amendment repeal referendum because of her Irish citizenship has lost her application to bring a High Court challenge over the matter.

    Roisin Morelli (26), who is studying for a Masters in Translational Medicine at Queens University, wanted to bring a judicial review claiming a refusal to grant her a vote was contrary to the Constitution, the Belfast Agreement and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).

    Mr Justice Charles Meenan, on Friday, rejected her application saying the case she made “falls well short of being arguable”.
    Last edited by osarusan; 20/04/2018 at 2:19 PM.

  20. #135
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    No representation without taxation.

    US ex-pats voting in their elections is fine with a population of over 300m, could be quite undemocratic to have "all" Irish citizens allowed a vote.
    "I'm just a chilled out entertainer"

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  22. #136
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    By the same token,shouldn’t 16 year olds then be exempt from having to pay PAYE if they work? It’s taxation without representation otherwise.

  23. #137
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    As a parent with a teenager in the house, who due to the spread of the offspring will have a teenager in the house for 2 full decades, absolutely balls to them.

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