Clubs divided over future LOI format?

[Real ale Madrid]

- Edit - I have seen how this type of system has been done here in Belgium, and it seems to have transformed interest in an otherwise dying league system, something similar was tried in Holland with varying degrees of sucess - I think its something the FAI should take a close look at.

[Charlie Darwin]

Edit: I've just realised that with 19 teams, there are (19*18)/2 potential two-legged ties, or 171 head-to-head cups to compete for.

What's the problem?

The thing about the proposal above is the fact that there are only 18 league games in total which gives a lot less leeway for teams to open up big gaps on each other.

As for the notion that a team may wish to drop from 4th to 5th - well is it easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 playoff or win the 5 to 8 playoff - thats a matter of opinion - but I know which I'd rather have a crack off anyway.

Agreed about the euro spots but you could take the euro spot away from the FAI cup for example. There would be plenty of other tweaks as well id imagine.

Would we be the only country in Europe not to send its cup winner into Europe? In fact, I have a hunch it's a UEFA requirement.

[Dodge]

Presumably other countries get around teams intentionaally tanking to get a better shot of Europe by paying decent prize money based on league finishing positions?

So 4th gets you a fair bit more than 5th, with Europa League money not being that big a carrot for them?

In our case, the financial rewards of Europe way, way outstrip the difference in prize money for 1/2 league positions, so that could be a stumbling block

Its a UEFA requirement that the Cup is a european qualifier. And even if it wasn't I'd hate to see that removed

[Macy]

Not everyone will agree, traditionalists will cower at the prospect of playoffs. But I think everyone agrees something radical needs to be done and quick.

Well I think something along those lines would be more beneficial.

The model I prefer is a two conference system - north/ south, with Dublin carved up as necessary, which would reduce travel and maintain most derbies, and hopefully make it more attractive for clubs to want to join the league. It would also remove some of the financial temptations off clubs trying earn promotion/ avoid relegation.

Home and Away within the conference, and then an interconference series of games which would be home or away on a seasonal rotation (like the 3rd series in a 12 team league). That'd give 13 or 14 regular season games. And then play off's for Championship (Top 2 from each Conference) and then whole way down for the "trophy" (3rd and 4th from each), "Shield" (5th and 6th from each), "Plate" (7th and 8th from each). One massive finals day in Lansdowne for all the cups. 9th and 10th could play off for relegation if that was an option, which it might be with a regionalised structure but more realistically missing out on the play offs, and having play offs down as far as 8th place would maintain the incentive.

Play the FAI Cup off early season with a view to June Bank Holiday weekend Final.

[Macy]

Its a UEFA requirement that the Cup is a european qualifier. And even if it wasn't I'd hate to see that removed

Cup Winners Cup always rated higher than the UEFA Cup (if a team qualified for both they went into the CWC), so only right too!

[marinobohs]

Well I think something along those lines would be more beneficial.

The model I prefer is a two conference system - north/ south, with Dublin carved up as necessary, which would reduce travel and maintain most derbies, and hopefully make it more attractive for clubs to want to join the league. It would also remove some of the financial temptations off clubs trying earn promotion/ avoid relegation.

Home and Away within the conference, and then an interconference series of games which would be home or away on a seasonal rotation (like the 3rd series in a 12 team league). That'd give 13 or 14 regular season games. And then play off's for Championship (Top 2 from aach Conference) and then whole way down for the "trophy" (3rd and 4th from each), "Sheild" (5th and 6th from each), "Plate" (7th and 8th from each). One massive finals day in Lansdowne for all the cups. 9th and 10th could play off for relegation if that was an option, which it might be with a regionalised structure but more realistically missing out on the play offs, and having play offs down as far as 8th place would maintain the incentive.

Play the FAI Cup off early season with a view to June Bank Holiday weekend Final.

Interesting model Macy, somewhat similar to American football/ baseball idea except conferences based on geography. Possibly worth consideration but I would like the FAI Cup to be an all Ireland cup (FAI context) to allow trips to opposite/different juristiction

Would cut down on travel costs and while I think longer term a single geographical entity preferable it might do on a temporary basis.

[Real ale Madrid]

Home and Away within the conference, and then an interconference series of games which would be home or away on a seasonal rotation (like the 3rd series in a 12 team league). That'd give 13 or 14 regular season games. And then play off's for Championship (Top 2 from each Conference) and then whole way down for the "trophy" (3rd and 4th from each), "Shield" (5th and 6th from each), "Plate" (7th and 8th from each). One massive finals day in Lansdowne for all the cups. 9th and 10th could play off for relegation if that was an option, which it might be with a regionalised structure but more realistically missing out on the play offs, and having play offs down as far as 8th place would maintain the incentive.

I like that idea too

- its great that the debate is becoming more radical in terms of thinking - rather than weighing up a 10 or 12 team premier. I can't think of anything worse than all 19/20 teams in the 1 league with no relegation - I can't for the life of me see how that would be benefical in the long run.

[peadar1987]

What's the problem?

It's just that's a lot of cups to introduce! People might see it as a bit of a gimmick, which I suppose it is!

I think it would add to the sense of occasion if games in the second half of the season had something riding on them other than the difference between 14th and 13th, the chance of Wexford wrestling back the Diagonal Classic Trophy from Finn Harps for the first time in five seasons or something, but would simply trying to attach meaning to something that's already sort of a thing really work? Maybe it could also be a way of getting some more minor sponsorship from local businesses, "The North-West Derby Shield, sponsored by Donegal Creameries".

Okay, so the bigger clubs wouldn't particularly care about winning their tie against Mervue, but they're not really who the idea is aimed at, because usually, by the end of the season, they'd be competing for titles and European places.

[pineapple stu]

Should the first division not be an amateur league though ?

Well, yeah, maybe the First alright. Thought you meant the LoI overall.

There has been tinkering with the numbers of clubs - but nothing else really. Tinkering isn't what's needed anyway - the play-off systems I propose above, added to the major reduction in games is a completely new format, which has never been tried here before ( the spliting of the league in the mid 90's is completly different imo )

This is not true, though. There's been 10-team and 12-team leagues. There's been a big division of 16 teams. Format-wise, there's been a top-half bottom-half split (not too far removed from the idea of play-offs). There's been a 4-3-2-1 points system, with bonuses for away results. The League Cup and First Division Shield have been used as season openers. There's been lots of tinkering. I don't see any reason to suggest your proposals would have any effect either. It's all along the same lines.

It's just that's a lot of cups to introduce! People might see it as a bit of a gimmick, which I suppose it is!

Obvious solution is to have each club competing for one trophy. So split the games -

Derry v Harps
Galway v Sligo
Cork v Limerick
Waterford v Wexford
Rovers v Bohs
UCD v Bray
Longford v Athlone
Dundalk v Drogheda

etc, etc.

You won't keep everyone happy of course, and yes, it is completely gimmicky.

[gormacha]

Does anyone know whether the FAI has ever commissioned a serious, heavyweight piece of research into the various league models that are operating in other countries? Contextualising those models in the specific cultural, demographic, economic, social etc environments in which they play?

[pineapple stu]

The Genesis Report.

Oh wait; you said "serious". Sorry.

[gormacha]

Yeah, Genesis. Not that.

I'd love to see de Montfort in Leicester or some organisation of that standing be commissioned.

[El-Pietro]

The thing about the proposal above is the fact that there are only 18 league games in total which gives a lot less leeway for teams to open up big gaps on each other.

As for the notion that a team may wish to drop from 4th to 5th - well is it easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 playoff or win the 5 to 8 playoff - thats a matter of opinion - but I know which I'd rather have a crack off anyway.

Agreed about the euro spots but you could take the euro spot away from the FAI cup for example. There would be plenty of other tweaks as well id imagine.

It might be easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 than win the second 4, but the top four would still only get one Europa League spot, unless you take a spot from the Cup which is insanity. You can't devalue the Cup like that. We already have one League cup. We don't need two.

What if theres a gap between second and third and its tight from 3rd to 5th for example? Especially if the points carry over. Second might have all but wrapped up a European spot and 3rd and 4th have almost nothing to play for while 5th -8th have a euro spot to play for.

I'm not entirely against the play off suggestion, I just think you need to take these things into consideration or you end up with a system that is wildly unfair in certain situations.

[peadar1987]

I like that idea too

- its great that the debate is becoming more radical in terms of thinking - rather than weighing up a 10 or 12 team premier. I can't think of anything worse than all 19/20 teams in the 1 league with no relegation - I can't for the life of me see how that would be benefical in the long run.

I don't think it would be for the long run, it would be until such time as Irish football had its house in order enough to host a second tier, without it being a graveyard with less than ten teams (In my opinion, ten teams is pretty much the critical mass for a decent competitive league). It's not ideal, but for me it's better than leaving clubs in that horrible basement.

I like the two-conference system as well, I think it tries to combine the best of both worlds, while still maintaining sporting integrity. A team that finishes second in their conference can still win the league overall, but the fact that they're playing in a group with teams from the other conference will have softened this somewhat.

However, I can't see the big clubs going along with the idea. Shams won't want to give up their games against Derry and Sligo and replace them with Waterford and Athlone, and I don't think the prospect of a big attendance at the end of the season for the potential playoffs will swing them back.

Another criticism (although it's one that could equally be levelled at the single-tier model) is that it makes it difficult for new teams to break into the league. You'd go straight from playing junior football to playing Sligo Rovers, with no intermediate divisions.

Just to play fantasy football for a moment, the two conferences would look like:

North:
Finn Harps
Derry
Sligo
Dundalk
Drogheda
Longford
Bohs
Shels
SD Galway
Mervue

South:
Cork
Waterford
Wexford
Shams
Limerick
UCD
Bray
St. Pat's
Athlone

Perhaps with a few additions in the future if clubs could be enticed by the lower cost.

[Real ale Madrid]

This is not true, though. There's been 10-team and 12-team leagues. There's been a big division of 16 teams. same lines.

This is just tinkering - rearranging the desk chairs on the titanic.

Format-wise, there's been a top-half bottom-half split (not too far removed from the idea of play-offs). There's been a 4-3-2-1 points system, with bonuses for away results. lines.

These were both a long time ago to be fair - and perhaps not relavant to the discussion of the modern game? I do conceed that there have been changes in the past but this is something completly new imo.
I think the proposal has to be looked at in conjuntion with the significant reduction in the number of games, which, in my opinion completely changes the dynamic of the league. Right from the get go teams have to hit the groud running, that is an essential difference from tinkering with games and formats to specifically changing the importance of each and every one of the matches played. Its a fundamental change - maybe for better, but maybe for worse - we change the competition from a marathon to a series of 100m sprints.

Sports change and evolve as time goes on - much to dismay and chargin of traditionalists - the last ten years have seen fundamental changes to lots of sports for a variety of reasons - backdoor's in GAA, 20Twenty cricket, 6 red snooker, the emergence of playoff's and bonus points in rugby.

Football is such a global sport, so what works in one place won't work in another - we don't have the big money of the Premiership - but other leagues adapt and look for ways to maximise and captivate the audience. We in the Loi will become irrelevant if we don't make ourselves and our games more relevant - its not a question of are we willing to change?, but surely when will we change and what will be become of the league and its people when we do change.

[peadar1987]

Obvious solution is to have each club competing for one trophy. So split the games -

Derry v Harps
Galway v Sligo
Cork v Limerick
Waterford v Wexford
Rovers v Bohs
UCD v Bray
Longford v Athlone
Dundalk v Drogheda

etc, etc.

You won't keep everyone happy of course, and yes, it is completely gimmicky.

It is the obvious solution, and is a nice idea, but would only increase the attendances for that particular game. Which is still much better than nothing, but doesn't solve the problem of Bray v Waterford for 11th place being essentially meaningless to most supporters and players.

[Mr A]

he problems with clubs is idiots running them, budgeting on income without it being confirmed. That's what needs to change for clubs to stop going broke, not play-offs.

I'd agree up to a point. But I think at this stage in division one that boards can get most things right and still find the club in trouble. Expenditure can only be cut so far via wage cuts- the fixed costs of being in the league are very high.

In fairness things are probably going in the same direction in the premier.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think it would be for the long run, it would be until such time as Irish football had its house in order enough to host a second tier, without it being a graveyard with less than ten teams (In my opinion, ten teams is pretty much the critical mass for a decent competitive league). It's not ideal, but for me it's better than leaving clubs in that horrible basement.

I like the two-conference system as well, I think it tries to combine the best of both worlds, while still maintaining sporting integrity. A team that finishes second in their conference can still win the league overall, but the fact that they're playing in a group with teams from the other conference will have softened this somewhat.

However, I can't see the big clubs going along with the idea. Shams won't want to give up their games against Derry and Sligo and replace them with Waterford and Athlone, and I don't think the prospect of a big attendance at the end of the season for the potential playoffs will swing them back.

Another criticism (although it's one that could equally be levelled at the single-tier model) is that it makes it difficult for new teams to break into the league. You'd go straight from playing junior football to playing Sligo Rovers, with no intermediate divisions.

Just to play fantasy football for a moment, the two conferences would look like:

North:
Finn Harps
Derry
Sligo
Dundalk
Drogheda
Longford
Bohs
Shels
SD Galway
Mervue

South:
Cork
Waterford
Wexford
Shams
Limerick
UCD
Bray
St. Pat's
Athlone

Perhaps with a few additions in the future if clubs could be enticed by the lower cost.

Why Shels in the north and Athlone in the south?

[peadar1987]

Why Shels in the north and Athlone in the south?

Because I've only been in England a year and already my memories of Ireland are already turning to mush. Shels should probably stay in the north, but the two Galway clubs would switch to the south.

To be honest, the best way of doing it would be a mathematical analysis of travel times, rather than a simple north-south split. I'd also be concerned over breaking up too many derbies. As it is, the proposal splits up Bohs and Shams, which the Gardaí would love, but the fans mightn't be too happy about.

[A N Mouse]

How about South America for inspiration; some kind of Apertura - Clausura based system.

Play each other once (home and away), but for opening, closing and overall championships. Overall champion qualifies for cl.

Some combination of 6-8 teams play off for 2 el slots (going further down for setanta spots)

2nd and 3rd overall, and next 2 highest from opening and closing championships.

With similarly styled system for relegation, if there somewhere to be relegated to.