The club doesn't have a public position but Emmett Malone is under the impression that is their position behind the scenes. If so, the club is putting immediate financial security ahead of the league's long term health.Originally Posted by Jofspring
I suppose the harder question they'd need to answer is would such a league provide sustained financial security and not just immediate security.
A premier division with the following grounds would a much more attractive prospect surely and much easier to market as a decent league with decent facilities than currently:
Tallaght Stadium
Turners Cross
Showgrounds
Hunky Dorys Park
Richmond Park
The Brandywell
Dalymount
Tolka
UCD Bowl
Carlisle
Oriel Park
RSC
Flancare Park
Athlone Town Stadium
A new Finn Harps Stadium
A new Markets Field
Deacy Park (Galway United in some form)
I know a few grounds would need work done to them, but at least we would have a pretty respectable looking league grounds wise with the addition of the 5 mentioned grounds, all of which should have very decent facilities and will at least abolish the rubbish about crap facilities keeps the crowds away. There would be a nice spread around the country too.
Limerick FC vs Shamrock Rovers once a season in Markets Field would draw a massive crowd and likewise I could see a decent following going to the away game if it's a once off away. Finn Harps vs Derry in the new stadium likewise. Then you would have the Munster derbies Limerick vs Cork, Cork vs Waterford etc.... Which I would expect to have big crowds regardless of being dead rubbers or not. Games need to be as much about occasions and days out as the actual importance of a game when it comes to joe public.
Last edited by Jofspring; 27/08/2012 at 6:06 PM.
2 or 3 years ago this topic would have about 20 pages by now.
Is that also a sign of how the league is going? Even the hardcore are losing interest.
Something drastic has to happen, whatever that drastic action is, it needs to happen soon.
Wage caps? lower affiliation fee's? better prize money? improved facilities? Half time strippers? Cut price alcohol sales in ground?
We know very well what the First Division is like. You can have one league, two leagues, or three leagues, the fact remains that our league is poorly organised, badly marketed, insanely scheduled, and comes with high ticket prices. It's never going to thrive while those factors exist. It will plod along as ever.
As regards Waterford, getting beaten 8-1 by Rovers (and other PD clubs on a regular basis) as they did this year, is not going to pull in the crowds of either side. Waterford Utd were kept up in the Premier Division for a number of years due to other clubs issues, until they finally went down in 2007. Clearly they think they should still be entitled to a piece of the Premier pie. Sadly for them, they'll have to earn it like everyone else. That's life.
As regards the feeder system, the reality is nobody wants it. Salthill and Mervue earned their place in the league via the feeder system, and have taken nothing but stick for it ever since. It's not their fault that they're based in Galway, and shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
I hated the 10-team league, and hated having to play certain teams 4 times a year as well. The madness of it hit home last year, when we had games in hand for months, and most of our last series of games had to be rescheduled because of our European success. Something had to change for this year and it did. It's not perfect, but while the first paragraph is the league's current model, a 12-team top flight is probably the best of the few options there are available imo.
Last edited by mypost; 27/08/2012 at 6:17 PM.
NL 1st Division Champions 2006
NL Premier Division Champions 2010
NL Premier Division Champions 2011
Keep Tallaght Tidy, Throw your rubbish in the Jodi
Ten Years Not Out
In fairness, that was pre-season and a completely different shaped Waterford team now.
More than 7 or 8 clubs in the lower division.
It's fire fighting a league in crisis. There's weak clubs, and clubs with potential in the 1st. 7 team division would mean more clubs throwing in the towel imo - and ironically it'll be the clubs with little potential that'll remain and have to be incorporated into the premier anyway.
It's fire fighting a league in crisis. To repeat again, an 7 or 8 team 1st isn't viable. Short term pain for the premier teams to ensure long term survival
Well I agree with the point that it's not a long term solution. Personally, I think the FAI/ league should be investigating radical options.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Never said it did. What I said is, if the likes of Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers are getting big crowds..they will continue to do so if they're pushing for League honours.
Except of course premier clubs that see standard drop and potential further deterioration in crowds, but, hey, as long as Harps get a couple of bigger gates.
Cop on. That's idiotic, sarcastic rubbish.
In the case of Monaghan Utd. That was their own fault. Over spending and stupidity. Their crowds did go up, they were earning more money than they were in the First, they were just not spending it wisely.More clubs pushing for the same sponsorship. Where did all that Premier Division "TV coverage" and "bigger interest" get Sporting Fingal or Monaghan Utd ? Watching top teams hammer smaller clubs ? much more interest ? Worked wonders for Galway last season*
Now don't even try compare Monaghan to Limerick/Longford/Harps/Waterford/Athlone, because we both already know, said clubs have much bigger fanbases.
Galway is an awful example to use.
That is exactly what I proposed instead of just changing the number of divisions
Great, glad we're in agreement, but tell me, what exactly is simply changing a name going to do if you're not going to adjust the structure?
Never said Wexford would pack out Dalymount. I'm saying there would be increased interest in Wexford in such a game. Don't you agree?Yep, can see Wexfors Youths packing out Dalymount alright. Much better for Bohs than a second home game against shams/pats. As ever, you appear incapable of seeing beyond the First Division perspective
For the record, I'm totally in favour of relegation/promotion. It adds added incentive to the end of season. Ideally a 16 team Premier would feed into regionalised Division 1 North and South, but for now, to re-build and re-brand the league, it has to be 1 division. 18/20 teams for now, and in 2 or 3 seasons, look at the league again. Look at the layout and structure and try work out a deal with the junior/intermediate leagues to potentially feed into the League of Ireland. I think it's the only way forward at the minute.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
I definitely get the impression that there is less traffic on here than there used to be.
In relation to the idea of one division- I think the key argument is that the first division is simply running out of clubs. An 8 team league is pretty awful but anything below that is just going to be utterly unsustainable. But then I don't think many people within the league care about the lower flight, never mind within the FAI.
#NeverStopNotGivingUp
It will not do so straight away but, as part of a well run league, could potentially address each of your questions in the positive over 2 or 3 seasons. But without the support of the FAI (real support i.e. structured and focussed financial resources) or endorsement of the PL clubs it will fail therefore it is a pointless suggestion. Ideally a more representative league is something we should consider and, i think, would be more appealing to floating fans, especially outside of Dublin.
I would like to see the idea of the 2 regional leagues underneath, supplemented with U19 teams, given more consideration. Theres potential in that idea as you can do what you like with the divisional leagues including promotion/relegation, registration fees and the cost to participate could be nominal or on a cost recovery basis etc etc. Reality is that some teams will have to be left behind in the initial stages.
How do you solve a problem like LOI?
why?
I would rather take a few years and get the structures in place to successfully and gradually transition to a 1, 2N, 2S format. An unsupported, immediate 18/20 team league will unquestionably fail and promotion/relegation will never be voted in and then it will truly become stagnant (until the AIL fixes everything...
1400 at Tallaght on Friday (and even that seems generous from where I was sitting) vs 5000 odd against Sligo on a Monday a couple of weeks back. Granted, one was a top of the table clash, but it shows the attractiveness of a clash does have a big effect on gates across the board. And Rovers would see a noticeable fall in average attendances from a league expansion - even with Shels and Cork coming up this year, the average is still down.
That's really disengenuous. This has nothing to do with a sense of "entitlement". It's a genuine issue of club survival. And not just ours. Have a giggle if you wish about our awful pre-season, but the fact remains that FD clubs are dieing the death of a thousand cuts.
Last edited by gormacha; 27/08/2012 at 8:39 PM.
I can't speak for others, but in my case it's purely down to emigration. The only threads I can really contribute to at the moment are the "how to fix the league" ones. I can't really make many valid and insightful points about Dane Massey's positional sense when I haven't seen a Bray game in over a year.
On the league structure, my current personal preference would be for a single top flight, large enough to have all of the "big" teams in. And by a big team, I mean a team with enough facilities and liabilities to need the revenue of playing in the top flight. Below that, you'd have a regionalised division one, possibly division two further down the line, with minimal licensing requirements in terms of facilities, designed to allow teams to compete in the LOI pyramid without breaking the bank. Below that, junior clubs affiliated with LOI clubs. Sure, you'd have a few duff teams, but I'd be more likely to pay money to see SD Galway, Crumlin United, Pike Rovers and Fanad than SD Galway four times, if only for the variety. And let's face it, no matter who joins the league, it's impossible for them to have too much less support than Mervue!
Will it happen? Honestly, I think junior clubs enjoy being big fish in small ponds far too much to want to suddenly to be playing in the second tier, and give up their positions of power, no matter how petty, to be part of something that could be truly beneficial for football in Ireland
The clubs are always (and rightly, in my opinion) going to want what's best for themselves. I can't see any other reason for Rovers (apparently) wanting a 10 team premier and 1st division clubs wanting the premier expanded. I'm not sure there is one idea of 'best interests of the league' which all clubs will ever agree on.
I get the argument that bigger clubs to play against will mean that the crowds at the weaker clubs will rise, but that improvement will be cancelled out by the reduction of corwds at the top clubs. If we're just talking about a way to ensure no clubs go bust, then an expanded premier would probably help, but I don't see that it would lead to general improvement at all levels.
As we're unlikely to ever get the clubs to agree on things, what's needed is for the FAI to do some serious research into how things are done elsewhere, and what the effects have been at stronger and weaker clubs, and how things could still have been improved on. With the research done, they just implement the new structure, and the clubs have no choice. However, I doubt the FAI have either the money or inclination to do it, and even if they did the research, they'd probably find that very very few of the LOI's problems will be solved by the implementation of a new league structure alone, and that problems like relationships with junior leagues, facilities, and amateurs running the clubs are for more serious problems.
Last edited by osarusan; 28/08/2012 at 6:35 AM.
A week later in a single division championship and it would be a league game. That would be par for the course for the current lower league clubs in a single division. That's not helpful either.
It is everything to do with entitlement. There are no free passes for Waterford or other clubs to the PD anymore. If you get there, it's because you earned the right to be there. They haven't done it yet, and will have to keep at it until they earn it.
I wouldn't be in favour of a ten-team division or a single division. I would be more in favour of an expanded lower division, with just 2 rounds of games. There is no incentive for lower league clubs to be playing games in July and August. There is no interest among players or fans, and none of them are playing in Europe. They would be better off going on an extended mid-season break, and saving themselves money...
NL 1st Division Champions 2006
NL Premier Division Champions 2010
NL Premier Division Champions 2011
Keep Tallaght Tidy, Throw your rubbish in the Jodi
Ten Years Not Out
Id give my right arm to see GUFC in any division right now, regardless of how many teams are in it.
Maybe the costs of participation could be looked at. Hard to see how any league can truly function properly without relegation
Been banished completely out of senior football completely is a nightmare i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy, even 7 years in the first division seems like heaven now
Last edited by geezer; 28/08/2012 at 8:20 AM.
Would you wish it on Mervue or Salthill?
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
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Well, that's your view, and I doubt any amount of discussion will convince you otherwise. Just to reiterate though, while you continue to see this as clubs trying to shortcut their way to the PD, and effectively tell them to "earn it", they will go out of business. If you're a hardline free marketeer, you may well think, "good". But this isn't a free market. A FD with seven clubs is structurally hamstrung so that no club with a senior infrastructure could survive. Ironically, it is Salthill and Mervue who are best equipped to survive in such a scenario.
For two rounds of games to be viable the FD would need to be expanded to sixteen clubs. I don't think this requires a line by line rebuttal to show that it is impossible and undesirable.
And as for taking July and August off, well, the FD clubs have already said it is the exact opposite they need. They don't even want the current short mid-season break as it is, as they lose income.
No.Would you wish it on Mervue or Salthill?
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Spot on, Osarusan. Clubs will always look at narrow self interest (as will most supporters). The League needs complete overhaul and rebranding, if part of this is a one division league I would fully support it but simply introducing a one division league is not an adequate solution in itself (however much short term gain would arise for certain clubs). History shows that the clubs are incapable of embracing (in my opinion) the type/scale of change required and it needs an external driver - be that the FAI or some other party - to devise and drive the major change necessary.
It remains my opinion that without redical change the League will continue to deteriorate.
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