Clubs divided over future LOI format?

[Sam_Heggy]

As a fan, do people really get excited about the prospect of facing the same team for a 4th league meeting in the season? Possibly a 5th or 6th meeting in total once you include cup competitions. It's boring beyond comprehension.

Players are fed up looking at the same players every week, teams are cancelling each other out as they are so familiar with each other (Pats-Sligo game being the most recent proof of this).

Was it not mentioned that there would be relegation with 4 regional leagues set up below the Prem? Ulster, Munster, Connaught and Leinster leagues respectively? So the no relegation arguement would be out the window.

On the other hand, you are going to get some absolute annihilation's for a few seasons between the top and bottom sides but there is some pretty poor sides in the Prem this past few seasons too and it doesn't seem to bother some people (depending on the geography of the club maybe?).

Clubs are working hard to improve their sides with extremely limited resources. You have Cobh, Harps, Salthill and Waterford from the 1st Division and below with sides in the Elite Division of the U19's working on developing players capable of going into their 1st team and making the senior side more competitive.

Personally, I would like it to stay as a Premier Division and 1st Division but only if there is more than 8 teams and sustainable one's at that) in the 1st. We've built a genuinely decent side in the 1st and would be serious contenders for promotion next season imo. We've proven that the crowds will come back once we are back in with a genuine chance of promotion again.

[Charlie Darwin]

First part accepted, but how would a one team division make any positive difference to that?

Stability, more variation, more competition due to a more equitable distribution of resources. I don't think it would make a massive difference on its own but I think it would help keep clubs in business which is the #1 challenge facing the league right now.

I wasn't talking about dead rubbers purely from a crowds num,ber point of view, I was talking more about the level of play in those games. Call it sporting integrity if you want to gove it a wanky title.

Is there really much of a difference between a one-tier league where 10 teams have nothing to play for a two-tier league where 8 clubs have nothing to play for?

[gormacha]

I know the travails of teams in the first division are of little interest to most clubs in the PD - except those that fear they could be there themselves in the not too distant future - but the bottom line is that the clubs in the FD are doomed unless there is change. The only option that will help them is a single division.

Clubs like Mervue and Salthill may then drift back into junior football, but I suspect Waterford, Athlone and Harps would probably just fold.

We are looking at a seven team division next year. With all due respect to Mervue and Salthill (says he as he goes on to slightly disrespect them), they are senior clubs in name only. They get home gates of under 100. Wexford aren't that far in front of them. So, for teams like Limerick, Harps, Athlone, Longford and Waterford United, we are effectively in a division with three/four teams that can generate gates that even remotely get us near breaking even on a given match night, let alone as a going concern. I suspect Waterford United will fold in advance of next season rather than face a seven team FD.

Someone above made the point along the lines of "would a few games against Shamrock Rovers, Sligo, Pats etc really add that much to these clubs' income?" The answer is, yes. Enormously so. The fact that that question can even be seriously posed shows how incredibly out of touch PD clubs' fans are with the realities of the FD.

I'm a rabid Blues supporter, but even I will not go and watch us play Salthill four times AGAIN next season. And if the likes of me won't go, we're phuqed.

I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised, but I would have thought a bit of variety for Dublin clubs outside of playing each other over and over again would make a single division interesting to them. It seems not.

[marinobohs]

Can those proposing/supporting the one League/ Division model explain


- will it improve crowd numbers ?

- will it improve standard of football/facilities/Licencing in the LOI ?

-will it heighten the profile or help promote the League in any way additional to that which the current model does ?

-will it attract money/investment into the League (above what current model generates) ?

Personally I cannot see a positive answer to any of those questions, therefore it is simply not the answer to the current ills of Irish football. It may be an ingredient in a new proposal but in isolation the idea of one division will simply create more mismatch games. Charlie Darwin posted that not many are currently "falling over themselves" to see Bray V Bohs, so imagine how many will "fall over themselves" to see Bray V Wexford Youths* ?




Change must have some significant business motivation (based around the questions above) or is simply change to be seen to "do something". We have had far too much of that crap in the past


* no offence to Bray or Wexford, you could almost as easily insert any two clubs in the country

[gormacha]

marinobohs - we're not talking about solving all of the LOI's problems, we're talking about something that would in the short to medium term save famous old clubs like Harps, Waterford, Athlone, Longford, and give clubs like Wexford a fighting chance of developing into a famous old club.

Some Dublin clubs may want a 10 team PD. They may well get it on a permanent basis.

[marinobohs]

marinobobs - we're not talking about solving all of the LOI's problems, we're talking about something that would in the short to medium term save famous old clubs like Harps, Waterford, Athlone, Longford, and give clubs like Wexford a fighting chance of developing into a famous old club.

Some Dublin clubs may want a 10 team PD. They may well get it on a permanent basis.

More snouts in a rapidly dwinding trough is not benificial for the game here. Your argument is that there should be a single tier league to provide a couple of extra gates for some first Division clubs ? Really ?

The problems at first division clubs are identical to the problems of Premier clubs - too low crowds, lack of credibility, lack of investment. These are the issues that need to be addressed not some window dressing that gives first Division clubs a couple of bigger gates a season. A major part of the problem in the League is that First Division (and Premier clubs) rarely seem capable of looking beyond their own vested interest.

[gormacha]

The problems at first division clubs are identical to the problems of Premier clubs - too low crowds, lack of credibility, lack of investment. These are the issues that need to be addressed not some window dressing that gives first Division clubs a couple of bigger gates a season. A major part of the problem in the League is that First Division (and Premier clubs) rarely seem capable of looking beyond their own vested interest.

I agree with you completely. I'm not sure why you think someone arguing to keep FD clubs alive would disagree with you on these points.

My point is simply this: more clubs will die, and more quickly, if the structure is left as is. This outcome is inevitable and it is imminent. Perhaps as early as next season. The debate over structure will become immaterial after that. You will then probably have a single division anyway, except it will be because many FD clubs have gone back to junior football or folded.

[nigel-harps1954]

Can those proposing/supporting the one League/ Division model explain


- will it improve crowd numbers ?

Yes. Most certainly for certain teams, as I've said before, if Shamrock Rovers are getting an average of 3,500 now, they'll continue to get it regardless of who they're playing as long as they're pushing for league honours.

- will it improve standard of football/facilities/Licencing in the LOI ?

Not necessarily, but I don't think anyone suggested it would. What it would do is give everyone a fighting chance of survival.

-will it heighten the profile or help promote the League in any way additional to that which the current model does ?

Yes. More clubs will be pushing for more sponsorship. The additional 7 first division teams will now be getting TV coverage in the one tier league, meaning bigger interest in sponsorship. The league will now be in line with the big fancy English Premier league, more teams, more interest in derby matches, less monotony of playing teams over and over again. So yes, much more interest.

-will it attract money/investment into the League (above what current model generates) ?

Nobody is suggesting it would, but it's possible yes. A new re-branded 'Republic of Ireland Super League' would have to catch the eye of potential investors.

Personally I cannot see a positive answer to any of those questions, therefore it is simply not the answer to the current ills of Irish football.

Personally, I think you have a very one-sided view on the matter. Try spending a few years in the First Division.

It may be an ingredient in a new proposal but in isolation the idea of one division will simply create more mismatch games. Charlie Darwin posted that not many are currently "falling over themselves" to see Bray V Bohs, so imagine how many will "fall over themselves" to see Bray V Wexford Youths* ?

What kind of interest is there in Wexford Youths vs Mervue United? Maybe an attendance of 150/200 people.

Now tell me, potential crowds at Wexford Youths vs Bohemian FC. Increased local interest in playing a bigger team, potentially an increase to 400 home fans, add in the away crowd that will travel (as opposed to no away crowd from Mervue), for arguments sake 100 people travel.
That extra 300 people can make a big difference to a club like Wexford Youths.

[Dodge]

The league will now be in line with the big fancy English Premier league

Eek!

As a fan, do people really get excited about the prospect of facing the same team for a 4th league meeting in the season? Possibly a 5th or 6th meeting in total once you include cup competitions. It's boring beyond comprehension.

As a fan group I'd imagine most Pats fans would take 2 home games with Bohs, Rovers and Shels over 1 each with Bohs, Rovers, Shels, Mervue, Wexford and Athlone (with all respect to their clubs).

Personally I'd be happy enough to never play Bohs, shels or ROvers again. but thats a different story

I know the travails of teams in the first division are of little interest to most clubs in the PD...

Some Dublin clubs may want...

Jesus, I hate this type of BS. I hate people looking out for their own clubs' welfare moaning about others doing the same. Particularly when the truth is that most have the best interest of the league at heart. They just think it should go different ways...

[gormacha]

Jesus, I hate this type of BS. I hate people looking out for their own clubs' welfare moaning about others doing the same. Particularly when the truth is that most have the best interest of the league at heart. They just think it should go different ways...

Both of those statements of mine that you pulled out (whilst ignoring the substantive point I was making) are accurate. Can you honestly say otherwise?

I don't mean to denigrate other clubs or their fans. I'm trying to convey the sense of frustration and helplessness that FD clubs feel when clubs (like Shamrock Rovers, as reported in the IT) seem happy to push for a ten team division, a structure which is our club's death knell. How anyone can argue that condemning us and similar clubs to play games against clubs that structurally cannot provide viable attendances four times a year when it is within their gift to change the landscape for the better at a stroke, and still maintain they have "the best interest of the league at heart" is hard to accept.

I just want clubs, in the first instance, to survive. We are at that juncture. In the same way that I wanted Bohs to overcome their recent problems. And wanted Pats to get back to their home ground. As I do Limerick. As I did Shamrock Rovers many years ago. As I wanted Dundalk to survive their recent and continuing challenges. I wasn't being jingoistic with my comments, and your response reveals more about your position than it did about mine.

[Dodge]

How anyone can argue that condemning us and similar clubs to play glorified junior clubs four times a year when it is within their gift to change the landscape for the better at a stroke, and still maintain they have "the best interest of the league at heart" is hard to accept.

Can't speak for Rovers but maybe they think that the 10 team league would help drive both competivieness and marketibility in the league. maybe they think the league shouldn't be suited around clubs that have failed, or are failing. Maybe they don't believe clubs who haven't earned the right to play in the premier division shouldn't be rewarded with a one division league. or maybe they think a 19 team league is the worst idea ever to happen.

It could be one, none or all of these. but the point remains that you can't see any merit in their point of view, and tbh that says it all for me.

I just want clubs, in the first instance, to survive. We are at that juncture. In the same way that I wanted Bohs to overcome their recent problems. And wanted Pats to get back to their home ground. As I do Limerick. As I did Shamrock Rovers many years ago. As I wanted Dundalk to survive their recent and continuing challenges.

And I'll say again, how will this make more clusb survive? Monaghan survived in the first, and died in the premier division. They didn't get the benefit of more away fans, TV coverage, etc etc. Clubs that are badly run will continue to be badly run. The league make up is immaterial

I wasn't being jingoistic with my comments, and your response reveals more about your position than it did about mine.

Of course my response reveals more about me. They're my words.

[Spudulika]

Last post first, Dodge is right (not on the eek!, that Irish Super League sounds like fun - why else is Premier used?) - this nonsense about what "Dublin clubs want", can we get past this please. This is one of the roots that cause complete discord in Ireland, full stop! This divide has to be closed, right away, we all want the league to thrive, not just survive. Ultimately we'll all go for a pint after a match, come on forums, tell tales about other clubs finances, about who broke a minutes silence first, which fans use umbrellas most creatively and other sorts of stupidity that make live more livable. However there is a caveat, we're divided and conquered and it's simply down to the administration and clubs to work together to make it right.

Now on a feeder system, I am completely in favour of this, that it's not there is nothing to do with Senior leagues below the LOI being disorganised, they're organised for what they serve and are there for. The difficulty is that there is no active step up to the LOI and we've to ask why? Blame the FAI? Blame licencing? Easy to do that, or maybe it's simply down to finances, fear of what could happen moving up to the LOI or just down to the fact that it's easier for Bluebell, Cherry Orchard, Bank Rovers or whoever to just play in a competitive context without the spotlight shining in the LOI. Back a fair while ago when Tolka Rovers were flying and won the Junior Cup, they did so with a smattering of Dubs players who were all getting a few quid for turning out. There was no oversight, no hassle and no contracts. Up in the LOI it's a different ball game.

Marinobohs, you've put up brilliant questions as to why should there be a single league/division, Nigel has answered them well (again I like that Super League idea), and you did right to question it. But please then take it to the next level and offer some views on what CAN be done to make it better.

On relegation/promotion, it's ideal, it doesn't take away from a league not to have an absence of it when there is a medium-long term plan, but it can only last for 2-3 years. Growth in clubs (numbers as well as within the clubs) is the only way to keep the ball rolling in the way Nigel has stated, so this then is back to the LOI clubs in the "new" division and the FAI to nurture other clubs into the equation. 16 clubs in the top division is optimal, though 20 to start with works nicely IF there is a plan in place.

[marinobohs]

I agree with you completely. I'm not sure why you think someone arguing to keep FD clubs alive would disagree with you on these points.

My point is simply this: more clubs will die, and more quickly, if the structure is left as is. This outcome is inevitable and it is imminent. Perhaps as early as next season. The debate over structure will become immaterial after that. You will then probably have a single division anyway, except it will be because many FD clubs have gone back to junior football or folded.

For the record I am not hung up on either argument (one or two divisions) and would be totally opposed to any maintenance of the status Quo (slow death all round IMHO) - except as part of a bigger League restructure. Numbers are dwindling, investment is almost a distant memory and the national economic situation is likely to get worse not better.

My point remains unless the League is rebranded/changed/sexed up then all clubs will continue to deteriorate. Believe me, if I thought that a 50 team division would boost crowds etc I would be for it, the fact is it would not.
Having a single division simply to provide a couple of bigger gates for some first division team is me feinism and gives the muppets in Abbotstown a chance to dodge makig the change that is really needed.


Believe it or not clubs in Dublin/Cork/Galway/Limerick have gone out of business so this is not a Dublin/City V Country thing

[marinobohs]

[QUOTE=nigel-harps1954;1622019]Yes. Most certainly for certain teams, as I've said before, if Shamrock Rovers are getting an average of 3,500 now, they'll continue to get it regardless of who they're playing as long as they're pushing for league honours.

So you dont believe the opposition has any impact on home crowds ? Utter rubbish

Not necessarily, but I don't think anyone suggested it would. What it would do is give everyone a fighting chance of survival.

Except of course premier clubs that see standard drop and potential further deterioration in crowds, but, hey, as long as Harps get a couple of bigger gates.


Yes. More clubs will be pushing for more sponsorship. The additional 7 first division teams will now be getting TV coverage in the one tier league, meaning bigger interest in sponsorship. The league will now be in line with the big fancy English Premier league, more teams, more interest in derby matches, less monotony of playing teams over and over again. So yes, much more interest.

More clubs pushing for the same sponsorship. Where did all that Premier Division "TV coverage" and "bigger interest" get Sporting Fingal or Monaghan Utd ? Watching top teams hammer smaller clubs ? much more interest ? Worked wonders for Galway last season*



Nobody is suggesting it would, but it's possible yes. A new re-branded 'Republic of Ireland Super League' would have to catch the eye of potential investors.

That is exactly what I proposed instead of just changing the number of divisions




Personally, I think you have a very one-sided view on the matter. Try spending a few years in the First Division.

More to LOI than the First Division - and you accuse premier Clubs of self interest



What kind of interest is there in Wexford Youths vs Mervue United? Maybe an attendance of 150/200 people.

Now tell me, potential crowds at Wexford Youths vs Bohemian FC. Increased local interest in playing a bigger team, potentially an increase to 400 home fans, add in the away crowd that will travel (as opposed to no away crowd from Mervue), for arguments sake 100 people travel.
That extra 300 people can make a big difference to a club like Wexford Youths

Yep, can see Wexfors Youths packing out Dalymount alright. Much better for Bohs than a second home game against shams/pats. As ever, you appear incapable of seeing beyond the First Division perspective

* except when the buggers played Bohs

[Macy]

Can't speak for Rovers but maybe they think that the 10 team league would help drive both competivieness and marketibility in the league. maybe they think the league shouldn't be suited around clubs that have failed, or are failing. Maybe they don't believe clubs who haven't earned the right to play in the premier division shouldn't be rewarded with a one division league. or maybe they think a 19 team league is the worst idea ever to happen.

Sounds like Rovers are Ollie Byrne reincarnated, if they believe that bs! 10 team has been tried, and failed. The league structure is part of the problem, even for well run clubs. As grime as being a League of Ireland fan is, perma premier division clubs fans really have no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.

Bottom line is a 7 or 8 first isn't viable. Premier division clubs and their fans can dress things up whatever way they want, but as others have said they'll either get a single division now, or they'll effectively force clubs out and get it in a year or two when clubs just pack it in.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Players are fed up looking at the same players every week, teams are cancelling each other out as they are so familiar with each other (Pats-Sligo game being the most recent proof of this).

How is that a proof of teams cancelling each other out cause they are so familiar with each other? It's the second time we've played them this season and both clubs have new managers and a lot of player changes from last season.

[Dodge]

Sounds like Rovers are Ollie Byrne reincarnated, if they believe that bs!

Just to be clear, I've no idea clue about their rationale. Just playing Devil's advocate in some way

no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.

You've said you'd like to see 2 divisions. So what happens when the 'new' 2nd division is (re)introduced.

Bottom line is a 7 or 8 first isn't viable. Premier division clubs and their fans can dress things up whatever way they want, but as others have said they'll either get a single division now, or they'll effectively force clubs out and get it in a year or two when clubs just pack it in.

Is the argument that the whole league should be re-arranged to save the weakest couple of clubs? How is that addressing anything?

If the SOLE thing donee to this league is that one division emerges, then clubs will die anyway. Because the same people are going to make the same mistakes

[marinobohs]

Sounds like Rovers are Ollie Byrne reincarnated, if they believe that bs! 10 team has been tried, and failed. The league structure is part of the problem, even for well run clubs. As grime as being a League of Ireland fan is, perma premier division clubs fans really have no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.

Bottom line is a 7 or 8 first isn't viable. Premier division clubs and their fans can dress things up whatever way they want, but as others have said they'll either get a single division now, or they'll effectively force clubs out and get it in a year or two when clubs just pack it in.

Macy, this is not a First V Premier issue either (apart from shams we dont know what Prem clubs think). A single Division would just as likely drag Premier clubs down as it would drag First Division teams up, is that what people want ?

As long as the League is as stagnant as it currently is (and that may be generous) then changing the structure will only determine which clubs go bang. Surely we should be looking to ensure none - Premier or First - do ?

[gormacha]

Is the argument that the whole league should be re-arranged to save the weakest couple of clubs?

That's not what's being argued. What is being argued is that a single division offers greater stability to those clubs that would be viable if given the lifeline of playing clubs that are capable of maintaining the interest of an increasingly uninterested public. My own bias is clear, as it would help Waterford United considerably, but my interest is not solely about our survival.

Clubs that would generally be seen as having been key parts of LOI history, and have proved over decades that in the right conditionsthey have a fan base capable of sustaining LOI football, need this. Us obviously, but Limerick, Athlone, Longford and Harps also. Galway as a town would also be included in that description. Salthill and Mervue, frankly, will never be in a position to really contribute as a senior club. So, not about saving the weakest couple of clubs, but possibly a half dozen of traditionally strong teams.

In the case of Waterford, for example, the club has been a model of financial restraint - its not a question of helping a club that was mismanaged, but helping a club that is structurally hamstrung by playing in a division from which it is finding it impossible to make ends meet, no matter how well run it is.

I know such a change is not at first glance in the interests of the "bigger clubs". My point earlier about they being Dublin clubs is not a pop at them for being from Dublin per se (I happily adopted both Bohs and Shels for years when living in Dublin), it is a statement of the reality that the clubs who will resist this most will almost certainly be the Dublin clubs, for good reasons. They will have fewer local derbies, and almost certainly their overheads will increase somewhat. What we are proposing is in some ways a redistribution of income achieved through restructuring that will offer a greater chance for other LOI clubs to survive. This is the main argument that I would put to these clubs - that rsestructuring is a key plank in helping the broadest spectrum of clubs survive. Ultimately, this is in everyone's interest.

Shoud this be part of a wider programme of reform? Certainly. But it's a crucial part.

[Jofspring]

Is what rovers are after a ten team premier? If so and the first division was to continue to get weaker and weaker with more teams dropping out every year for either financial reasons or just wanting to go back to junior leagues till the division is potentially gone would we not be left with a single division anyway with the same ten teams playing each other over and over and over again? It wouldn't take much for that to happen. It's not like teams are queing up to replace the teams leaving or to just join in the division in general. SD, Mervue and let's say Waterford decide to pull out next season and go to senior league. You are then left with a handful of teams who would also be forced to pull out as the division would be so small they could not survive.

Would rovers still be interested in a 10 team league if let's say they were in the bottom two of the league and faced being bumped down to division one to accommodate a ten team league? I highly doubt it.

Obviously all of that is hypothetically but it's not beyond the realms of belief that it could happen. The way things are going we are slowly edging towards it anyway.

I really don't think one division for the next 5 years is such a crazy suggestion.