If I may play devils advocate on the whole Delaney/Monaghan/Oireland thing.

[Lim till i die]

First off, let me start by saying I have no time whatsoever for John Delaney. The very nicest thing I could say about him is that he is a shrewdish politician.

The actions of the FAI (lets face it John Delaney) towards my own club Limerick and our chairman Pat O'Sullivan ever since the Barcelona farce have been nothing short of a disgrace.

Also, I'm not for a second suggesting that when John Delaney and the FAI do act the maggot it shouldn't be highlighted and highlighted vigourously.

However......

The recent wailing and knashing of teeth around Monaghan dying and the general state of the league has got me thinking.

Did the FAI not take over the league in the late 90s because of the absolute shambles the clubs were making of it??

Have the clubs as a whole gotten any better at running their own affairs?? Forget about the FAI. Just doing their own business properly.

Would it be fair to say that most clubs are still ran by (often well meaning and hard working, don't get me wrong) gobdaws??

If the clubs were being competently ran could they not go out on their own in the morning to the sound of popping champagne corks in Abbotstown??

Is it not now a fact, plain for all to see, that many clubs have been poorly ran to the extent that they are now bought and paid for by John Delaney/The FAI.

Take all the wailing about the Drogheda United board in the wake of the banners and chanting the other night. Don't get me wrong bannings would be ridiculously harsh (I'd be interested to hear if they actually happen) but if you think about it for a split second what way would you expect the Drogheda board to react?? Cast your mind back a little over twelve months to the Claret and Blue launch and Johns help and personal wedge from his expense account.

Bought and paid for by the FAI.

And the situation is the same the length and breadth of the league. Clubs in thrall to John Delaney because they've either needed a dig out at some stage or they are in such poor shape themselves that a dig out could be just around the corner and as such they are afraid of their lives of upsetting him.

This isn't John Delaneys fault. He's taking advantage of the situation. But the situation is nowhere near entirely of his own making.

LoI clubs for the most part are tiny, emasculated, shells incapable of even beginning to think of standing on their own two feet. Just hanging on in their day to day, not rocking the boat in the hope that if (when!!) the bad times come they'll be thrown a few crumbs from the top table, like medieval serfs bowing and scraping around their lord.

And what good does it do them in the medium term??

Look at Galway United.

Noel Mooneys (lord preserve us, he's over in Geneva now) model club. Lorded as everything a provincial club could be. A couple of years later, they've a ****** made of the whole thing, the poor fool fans pick it up, try and run with it and look for a bit of help. Where has all the arse kissing and model club nonsense got them?? Wait they're not needed anymore. So they are shafted. And make no mistake, when gust get back in next year, it'll be on John and Eamons terms.

Look at Monaghan United.

Tiny club with a few loyal volunteers. One of the FAI/JD's top cheerleaders in the past. Trawl back through the threads on here if you don't believe me. That was until the season before last when they were shafted out of a Premier spot by Galway being kept up. The warning signs were there at this stage. Fast forward just over a year to the first signs of serious trouble. Where has all the arse kissing got them?? Don't let the door hit ye on the way out lads. And why this attitude?? Because the FAI/JD have complete and utter power due to the weakness of the clubs and a diddly little junior club with no fans in the middle of nowhere was not part of the grand plan.

Compare the attitude to the troubles in Monaghan with the attitude to the troubles in Dundalk where there's Trap nights and a Chelsea xi and lions and tigers and bears oh my!

Why the difference?? Because the FAI/JD have been allowed to be all powerful by the shambolic clubs and while the FAI/JD like the sound of a Dundalk they have neither a want nor need for a Monaghan.

I was chatting hypotheticals with a mate the other night and we were saying supposing the clubs took back power in the morning and ran affairs themselves what radical changes could they make for the better.

We suggested two things. (We weren't thinking particularly deeply!) A wage cap and an under 23 reserve league which could also act a viechele for promotion and relegation to a 12, 14 or 16 team top tier.

And even as we suggested these two things we were shooting them down.

Why??

Because if you tried to enforce a wage cap you'd have gobdaw boards paying cash under the table.

And if you tried to set up an u-23 Reserves league you'd have gobdaw boards complaining about the costs involved with fielding a reserve team while they paid cash under the table in the top flight.

This is still the league of ireland in the year of our lord 2012.

Is the situation I've outlined above entirely the fault of John Delaney and the FAI??

My point in summary if I have one is as follows:

Lads, if massive efforts are to be made, instead of whinging about John Delaney and organising meetings to synchronise mass whinging, these efforts would be far, far better directed at helping your own clubs, improving their structures, improving your facilities, getting involved in whatever your boards ask or getting involved in getting rid of your own boards if they're not up to it. Put the effort not into navel gazing and nashing of teeth but into strengthening andrebuilding so that one day the clubs might again be able to stand on thier own two feet.

Would getting rid of John Delaney help the situation?? Undoubtedly yes in my opinion.

But make no mistake, with the way the league is headed, celebrating in the aftermath of getting rid of Delaney would be the equivalent of celebrating getting the bullet lodged in your brain removed while there's still a massive harpoon stuck in your chest.

Anyway, sorry for the big long polemic. I'm just trying to get some honest discussion going.

So.

Discuss the issues.

[osarusan]

Typical Sligo fan bullsh!t.

[Lim till i die]

[Charlie Darwin]

Totally correct from LTID. The FAI are in control of the league because they have to be, not because they want to be. Nothing would please John Delaney more than a competent league administration that could leave him alone so he can devote himself full time to appearing alongside Trapattoni at prominent pre-planned media events. Fact is if the clubs had any semblance of organisation between them they wouldn't need this shambolic association.

[Spudulika]

LTID, you are right on all levels, especially the alternative (you and your friend suggested). If the clubs took back control (did they ever give it away, not really, they just don't want it) there would be wholesale collapse. Irish football, as I've said over and again, needs top-down, bottom-up overhaul. If clubs ran themselves properly (generalising here) then there would be no whinging. JD is the figurehead and I've seen him in action, along with the club reps, overseas and there is no division. It suits all parties to have the status quo.

The clubs need to get together, present a unified front to the FAI, while at the same time co-operate with schoolboy leagues and get a massive block vote to enforce changes from the top.

[athloneman]

LTID your right, clubs need to get there own houses in order before attacking the FAI as i believe the FAI will only throw back any issues in their faces!! If they sort themselves out, then we can start talking about making plans to improve the league and then tackle the fai on all thats wrong with domestic football. as you said loi clubs need to get involved with schoolboy/junior clubs (even do there wont be too much cooperation) they still need to reach out and try come up with plans to link the whole thing together, until then they are all just pi**ing in the wind!!

[sullanefc]

Good post LTID. I think the point which I agreed with the most is when you mentioned gobdaws running the clubs. I think this is a wider issue in Ireland. We have gobdaws running everything. Our politicians are gobdaws, our bankers are gobdaws. I despair for this country sometimes. Why do all these snakes and idiots rise to power in organisations in this country?

[Mr A]

That's actually the one point I would take issue with. There's a lot of great people running clubs in Ireland. Sure there have been plenty of terrible ones too, but even where the people involved are decent and sensible things can still go wrong- because running a football club is hard. Really hard. The line is often trotted out here that it's simple- just spend what you're guaranteed to bring in, but there are no guarantees in football. And in football cutting your expenditure beyond a certain point can see your income plummet faster than you can cut your spending and there are some expenses that just can't be reduced (the old austerity argument again!).

And the biggest problem many clubs have, and it's certainly the case at Harps in the past few years, is not that we have the wrong people in charge, it's that we don't have enough people willing to actually help. There is an infinite supply of people willing to point out errors and gaps and failings, but there are **** all willing to actually lend a hand. That said, the people running clubs would do very well to look at learning a bit about volunteer management, as this is often a major failing. Harps burn through volunteers who do too much, burn out and lose interest.. if we could retain all the great people who've been involved in the last ten years there'd be no stopping us. Again, this is the sort of stuff the FAI should be helping with- helping with training, easing the workload on clubs, helping them to help themselves. They have done some good stuff previously in fairness in the marketing area, there may well be a lot more I'm not aware of.

On the general point I agree- it's far too easy and commonplace to blame the FAI for everything, even if there is a lot they've done I disagree with.

[marinobohs]

LTID, you are right on all levels, especially the alternative (you and your friend suggested). If the clubs took back control (did they ever give it away, not really, they just don't want it) there would be wholesale collapse. Irish football, as I've said over and again, needs top-down, bottom-up overhaul. If clubs ran themselves properly (generalising here) then there would be no whinging. JD is the figurehead and I've seen him in action, along with the club reps, overseas and there is no division. It suits all parties to have the status quo.

The clubs need to get together, present a unified front to the FAI, while at the same time co-operate with schoolboy leagues and get a massive block vote to enforce changes from the top.

I have said before that the FAI brought some small semblance of order to clubs but that is no replacement for doing the job they are (very well) paid to do, administer Irish football.

Clubs the world over appear incapable of "responsible" behaviour - Man Utd debt, Liverpool minutes from extinction, Glasgow rangers gone, Barca debt and the daddy of them all Real madrid debt a few years back ) if massive clubs with huge payrolls cannot contain themselves how unrealistic is it to expect part time/volunteer officials to do so ?

That is the reason we have an FAI at all. Is it justifed to pay Delaney 400 K simply because a volunteer is not any better ?

Club officials have a role (and responsibility) in the running of their own club. The FAI has a role/responsibility in running the League. The often amateur (no matter how well meaning) behaviour of club representatives (usually unpaid) in no way justifies the mess the FAI have made of the promotion/maintenance of the League.


The FAI also have the power/authority to make clubs comply with proper rules/protocols unfortunately they appear more concerned at dishing out fines for critisism of their flawed model of league and the overpaid junketeer at the helm.

[Eminence Grise]

Well said, LTID, and appropriately provocative.

I’ve said it here before, and I’ll say it again: we need to take action against people who mismanage clubs, right up to reporting them to the ODCE, and having the FAI ban them from all footballing activity for an appropriate period of time. Good intentions count for nothing, and the gobdaws identified here will continue to be just that until one of them receives a court judgment restricting them as a director.

You can allow a boil to fester, or you can bring it to a head.

Is initiating this kind of action something fans need to do themselves to ensure better governance of their clubs? I feel for Monaghan fans, it’s a terrible thing to see your club disappear, but there should be no way back for the club to league football without appriopriate punishment for those in charge, and the most stringent financial undertakings (entering into a six-figure surety bond for starters) and fit-and-proper-person tests for board members. In fact, should be applied to all clubs without exception.

Delaney, though not the best person for the job, is symptomatic of a problem rather than the problem itself. Clubs don’t work together; leagues and levels of football don’t work together. There are two letters in today’s Irish Times praising Delaney for all the work he has done at grass roots; the same roots that would rather wither than help the green pitches of the LoI to prosper. The FAI seems to have no interest in the LoI; I would gladly advocate a separation of the two if I believed that the clubs would run themselves properly. My belief in the tooth fairy is unshakeable compared to that. What Irish football needs is a benevolent dictator with a brass neck and the balls to destroy gombeenism and parochialism.

[Mr A]

A six figure surety bond?!? Most people running LOI clubs are regular folks doing it in their spare time!

As I said above, there's a tendency to blame the FAI for the woes of the league far too much. But that doesn't mean we should blame it all on some other bogeyman, in this case club directors. that's just another easy way out.

It boils down to this- if you want a better league, get involved and play your part in making your club better.

[Eminence Grise]

Clubs have no difficulty wasting six figures on over-paid players, or directors' remuneration, or racking up debts to that level. AFAIK, you can buy insurance for a bond, which is obviously cheaper - some of the financial wizards here will know whether I'm right or barking about that. A serious financial consideration might make clubs take their responsibilities more seriously.

It's very easy to tell fans to get more involved, but at most clubs only a very small number at board level actually have any power - and that's where you really need to ensure that you have the right people. Ousting a board is hard work - just ask Cork, Bohs, GUST etc. Fans can get involved by holding their boards to account - but they've got a poor record of doing that until it's too late.

[citybone]

Well said, LTID, and appropriately provocative.

I’ve said it here before, and I’ll say it again: we need to take action against people who mismanage clubs, right up to reporting them to the ODCE, and having the FAI ban them from all footballing activity for an appropriate period of time. Good intentions count for nothing, and the gobdaws identified here will continue to be just that until one of them receives a court judgment restricting them as a director.

You can allow a boil to fester, or you can bring it to a head.

Is initiating this kind of action something fans need to do themselves to ensure better governance of their clubs? I feel for Monaghan fans, it’s a terrible thing to see your club disappear, but there should be no way back for the club to league football without appriopriate punishment for those in charge, and the most stringent financial undertakings (entering into a six-figure surety bond for starters) and fit-and-proper-person tests for board members. In fact, should be applied to all clubs without exception.

Delaney, though not the best person for the job, is symptomatic of a problem rather than the problem itself. Clubs don’t work together; leagues and levels of football don’t work together. There are two letters in today’s Irish Times praising Delaney for all the work he has done at grass roots; the same roots that would rather wither than help the green pitches of the LoI to prosper. The FAI seems to have no interest in the LoI; I would gladly advocate a separation of the two if I believed that the clubs would run themselves properly. My belief in the tooth fairy is unshakeable compared to that. What Irish football needs is a benevolent dictator with a brass neck and the balls to destroy gombeenism and parochialism.

Here here. so who wants the job?

[marinobohs]

Well said, LTID, and appropriately provocative.

I’ve said it here before, and I’ll say it again: we need to take action against people who mismanage clubs, right up to reporting them to the ODCE, and having the FAI ban them from all footballing activity for an appropriate period of time. Good intentions count for nothing, and the gobdaws identified here will continue to be just that until one of them receives a court judgment restricting them as a director.

You can allow a boil to fester, or you can bring it to a head.

Is initiating this kind of action something fans need to do themselves to ensure better governance of their clubs? I feel for Monaghan fans, it’s a terrible thing to see your club disappear, but there should be no way back for the club to league football without appriopriate punishment for those in charge, and the most stringent financial undertakings (entering into a six-figure surety bond for starters) and fit-and-proper-person tests for board members. In fact, should be applied to all clubs without exception.

Delaney, though not the best person for the job, is symptomatic of a problem rather than the problem itself. Clubs don’t work together; leagues and levels of football don’t work together. There are two letters in today’s Irish Times praising Delaney for all the work he has done at grass roots; the same roots that would rather wither than help the green pitches of the LoI to prosper. The FAI seems to have no interest in the LoI; I would gladly advocate a separation of the two if I believed that the clubs would run themselves properly. My belief in the tooth fairy is unshakeable compared to that. What Irish football needs is a benevolent dictator with a brass neck and the balls to destroy gombeenism and parochialism.

The mismanagement of clubs and the mismanagement of the League are completely different issues. If no LOI club had gone belly up this season crowds, sponsorship etc would still be appalling.


By all means have a witchhunt for club directors that "mess up" (that should encourage more to get involved in clubs ) but it is no substitute for making the FAIlures get the structures in place. Both need addressing but for me the structures must be the priority - especially as we have paid people responsible.

[Spudulika]

EG has a good point in this, the surety. I forget which thread, but I mentioned the KHL (Kontinental Hockey League) requiring clubs have a % of the submitted wage budget being in an escrow account before a licence is given. This weekend there's a conference here in Moscow regarding licencing for football clubs (the Privolga region is today) and one of the laughable aspects is that Premier clubs (as well as others) have been let away with murder - or in one case, the threat of murder. Big wages aren't always paid, players are beholden to the clubs, though the clubs look after the expenses related to players (food, travel, accommodation) as if they didn't they'd be criminally liable. However the Privolga region is bringing (to the PFL) an article that clubs who do not pay players up to date within 3 months (regardless of players signing waivers) are thrown out of the league. Right now there's a 10% rule, you pay at least 10% of the salary and look after the living quarters and you're grand.

In Ireland it's different though (I was taken to task for this suggestion on another thread) supporters can make sure their clubs do the right thing and stop clubs carrying on. It's tough, but it can be done.

[sullanefc]

requiring clubs have a % of the submitted wage budget being in an escrow account before a licence is given.

I think this is a good idea. I'm not advocating centrally contracting the players, but maybe a central payroll. One person in the FAI's offices that pays all players in the league depending on the contract submitted by the club. To fund this person's wage, all clubs could make a contribution. To fund the wages, clubs would deposit 65% of the previous years turnover into an account from which wages would be paid. The club could then not be allowed to pay more than this to players in a season. If the value of contracts submitted by the club exceeds the amount in the account, then the club can't sign the player. If clubs have a bad season in terms of attendances and sponsorship, then the money to pay players is safe, but the clubs ability to sign players the following season would be affected and force them to cut their cloth.

The next problem is, how do clubs get the money together at the start of the season to pay this. Well you could build it up over a few years. If clubs reduced their wage bill to say 40 or 50% for 6 or 7 years, then they should be able to build up the funds required. New clubs coming into the first division then, would have to have a minimum amount of money raised (to go into this account) before they are admitted.

It would be difficult to set up and it would take time, but I think it would be worth doing to prevent clubs from going out of business over non payment to players.

[Spudulika]

Sullane, I like your idea, and I would go one further, and this is something (when he was in charge of Cork) that Rico submitted to the FAI and I know he's done it since. Basically all players, from kids up to LOI players, are all under contract to the FAI. This is old school eastern european, but it works and is legal. So any young player leaving Ireland, and money gets paid for him (say 10,000), his club(s) are entitled to a lump of it and the rest is taken centrally. Then you roll in the situation where a lump of turnover from clubs gets paid up to D.15 and it goes into your scenario. Start top to bottom.

Kev, I've heard the same things from officials that they didn't get paid for a couple of months. The respect kind of goes out of the situation in such a case.

One thing that is never clear to me is how players are paid (I've heard different versions from different angles), but a monthly payment might help. Weekly wages should be a thing of the past, in many ways, but fortnightly or monthly allows clubs a longer run of it. Also in the system that Sullane outlined it would be a major help.

[marinobohs]

One thing that is never clear to me is how players are paid (I've heard different versions from different angles), but a monthly payment might help. Weekly wages should be a thing of the past, in many ways, but fortnightly or monthly allows clubs a longer run of it. Also in the system that Sullane outlined it would be a major help.

I know of at least one example where a playing staff member on monthly pay wanted to move to weekly pay to ensure he only lost a weeks pay if club went under

The idea of bonds etc is good in theory but with many clubs surviving week to week (or month to month) would not work in current LOI. Cash flow problems are often more dangerous that aquired debt and keeping money aside for future wages is just not an option.

[Eminence Grise]

There are some financial geniuses around alright, MB...

Cashflow is a killer for any business, and I know that a bond of, say, 100k would be impossible for a club to find overnight, but if it were announced that in three seasons all clubs were required to have it, that would give enough time to fundraise or check out available insurance products -though given the league's track record, any insurer would probably require a premium close enough to the amount of the surety! Reducing the salary cap to 60% for three seasons and ensuring that the cut 5% went towards raising the bond would make it a little less painless. (If a club makes 500k per season, 5% of that is 25k). The bond could be invested and annual interest could be paid to clubs in the close season to help with cashflow. Just thinking out loud.... I know my idea has flaws, but the responses are interesting (especially Sullanefc's), and probably a lot more creative than anything the FAI has come up with.

[marinobohs]

I think this is a good idea. I'm not advocating centrally contracting the players, but maybe a central payroll. One person in the FAI's offices that pays all players in the league depending on the contract submitted by the club. To fund this person's wage, all clubs could make a contribution. To fund the wages, clubs would deposit 65% of the previous years turnover into an account from which wages would be paid. The club could then not be allowed to pay more than this to players in a season. If the value of contracts submitted by the club exceeds the amount in the account, then the club can't sign the player. If clubs have a bad season in terms of attendances and sponsorship, then the money to pay players is safe, but the clubs ability to sign players the following season would be affected and force them to cut their cloth.

The next problem is, how do clubs get the money together at the start of the season to pay this. Well you could build it up over a few years. If clubs reduced their wage bill to say 40 or 50% for 6 or 7 years, then they should be able to build up the funds required. New clubs coming into the first division then, would have to have a minimum amount of money raised (to go into this account) before they are admitted.

It would be difficult to set up and it would take time, but I think it would be worth doing to prevent clubs from going out of business over non payment to players.

Would make sense except, additional cost of admin - more cost on clubs ? not to mention the fact that NO club has 65% of previous year turnover to deposit before season begins. Realistically no club is going to build up a reserve over 6/7 years because most survive on a week to week basis. Any surplus cash is well spoken for paying what is owed already.

Not dissing your idea Sullanefc (or other posters) but only way clubs could lodge money up front would be to borrow, and attract interest charges which increase outgoings leading to more borrowing...............