Beecher Networks - Web Development, Hosting & Domains
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Modern languages in primary schools initiative gets the axe.

  1. #1
    Seasoned Pro Lionel Ritchie's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Limerick
    Posts
    4,333
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    194
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    285
    Thanked in
    168 Posts

    Modern languages in primary schools initiative gets the axe.

    Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318189073.html

    An awful shame this. Improve literacy by ruling out modern languages? Entirely Irish logic.
    " I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"

  2. Thanks From:


  3. #2
    Youth Team shantykelly's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    247
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    67
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    33
    Thanked in
    22 Posts
    insanity. being able to speak even a bit of a foreign language is great, and if 10, 15, 20 years down the line it makes the economy more attractive to european investment, then it can only be good for the country.

    as an aside - is it just me or is starting a literacy/numeracy programme a bit like throwing more money at teachers to do the job they're supposed to be doing anyway?
    i believe in one man, one vote. i should be that one man with that one vote.

    ALWAYS ON TOUR!

  4. #3
    Seasoned Pro Lionel Ritchie's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Limerick
    Posts
    4,333
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    194
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    285
    Thanked in
    168 Posts
    As far as I can tell Shanty the literacy and numeracy agenda appears to be about "re-prioritising" what teachers teach and how they teach it. That basically means they are to spend more time teaching maths, more time teaching literacy -and that means English AND Irish. That time has to come from somewhere and where it's intended it'll come from is namby-pamby not "real" subjects anyway like Science and Nature studies, Geography, History, Music, Drama and Art and possibly Physical education as well. Those subjects are to be treated as "service subjects" as well -that is -used to assist teaching literacy and numeracy.

    Religious Education though (essentially RC sacrament preparation in our educational system) will not be affected one jot. As I said Irish will be unaffected too and may actually increase.

    If you're an uber-gael RC (and there's plenty that are in the upper echelons of Irish education) it's arguably all good news -but to my mind that makes it an example of service provision designed to suit and benefit the provider rather than the end user.

    It is certainly the case that with that mindset and those priorities -anyone making a case for teaching 7 year old Irish kids a modern language (as is about to become compulsory in England) would be laughed at by those who could make it happen.
    " I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"

  5. #4
    Seasoned Pro
    Joined
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    2,662
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,280
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,854
    Thanked in
    893 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by shantykelly View Post
    insanity. being able to speak even a bit of a foreign language is great, and if 10, 15, 20 years down the line it makes the economy more attractive to european investment, then it can only be good for the country.
    I have a niece who is 5. Already she speaks English, Irish (since she started in a Gaelscoil last year) and Norwegian (from her mother). Her two younger siblings are on the same road. Having started learning French too late at 12, I limped through three years of it in college, but the effort paid off: I can travel, watch French cinema, read French newspapers and it’s no great burden having another language. The earlier we are exposed to languages the easier it is to learn them. Language acquisition by natural dialogue is far better than book learning about grammar; by the age of 4 we master the basics of our mother tongue; what comes after that is linked to developmental learning (nuances, time and tenses, vocabulary etc).

    There’s a tremendous economic benefit to being multi-lingual, but there is also a far more important cultural and social benefit, broadening our horizons and making us less dependent on an Anglophone world. (The debates on the LoI and Irish football threads about why our young footballers always look to Britain are proof that being monolingual has a limiting impact in more ways than we acknowledge.)


    Quote Originally Posted by shantykelly View Post
    as an aside - is it just me or is starting a literacy/numeracy programme a bit like throwing more money at teachers to do the job they're supposed to be doing anyway?
    Teachers are hobbled by curricula that emphasise certain aspects of child development and learning, and certain ways of teaching. My sister is an Aistear tutor and trains primary teachers how to integrate play and learning; she has had incredible results with her junior infants and it shows how, if the straitjacket is removed, teachers can do the job they're paid to do.

    One concern about teachers teaching literacy is that grammar has not been assessed in the junior cert since, I think, 1990. So many of our primary and secondary teachers have never encountered clauses, gerunds, subject-object-predicate, the preterite etc etc - how can they teach literary without first being taught themselves?

    LR, there’s a lot of sense in what you say. The idea that history or music become subservient to literacy is dreadful. We should be teaching children to learn for the pure joy of learning rather than churning out products tailored to current economic and industrial fads.

    There’s a simple solution, though not without cost implications, to teaching religion, too: take it outside regular school hours. Half an hour at classes’ end three times a week is sufficient, and it frees up teaching time during the day. I do believe that religion is too important to be downplayed out of existence, or just left to the parent: at its most basic, ecumenical level it helps create a public morality and sense of ethics, of what is right and wrong, that seems not to be taught in every home in contemporary society.

    The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

  6. Thanks From:


  7. #5
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    7,908
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,206
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,787
    Thanked in
    999 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post

    There’s a tremendous economic benefit to being multi-lingual, but there is also a far more important cultural and social benefit, broadening our horizons and making us less dependent on an Anglophone world.
    Some research starting to suggest that there's a health benefit too, with bilinguals (or multilinguals) more likely to have the onset of Alzheimer's delayed.

  8. Thanks From:


  9. #6
    Seasoned Pro Lionel Ritchie's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Limerick
    Posts
    4,333
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    194
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    285
    Thanked in
    168 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    There’s a simple solution, though not without cost implications, to teaching religion, too: take it outside regular school hours. Half an hour at classes’ end three times a week is sufficient, and it frees up teaching time during the day. I do believe that religion is too important to be downplayed out of existence, or just left to the parent: at its most basic, ecumenical level it helps create a public morality and sense of ethics, of what is right and wrong, that seems not to be taught in every home in contemporary society.
    I take your point -though I don't think there's a lot of ethics, morality or indeed religion taught in the homes of plenty of people who'll spend a fortune on outfits, caterers and bouncy castles for the first holy communion etc. I'd take the solution you're advocating in a heartbeat too by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?
    I have virtually none. I can manage transactions like shopping and restaurants in French. That's about it. I can swear in Dutch like a Dutch sailor if that counts. I very much wish I'd had a crack at French when I was younger. They start teaching it to kids here at 12 and 13 when their brains are turned to muck by hormones and self conciousness.
    " I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"

  10. Thanks From:


  11. #7
    Reserves EAFC_rdfl's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Athlone/Loughrea
    Posts
    907
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,646
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    108
    Thanked in
    74 Posts
    I have a bit of french and can hold good conversation in irish no bother. I think Italian wouldnt be too hard picked up if I gave it a bit of attention, the written language is easy enough to match up to english. have a few basic words of finnish too!!
    Havin a weekend away is quite frankly,lettin ur team mates down!

  12. Thanks From:


  13. #8
    Seasoned Pro
    Joined
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    2,662
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,280
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,854
    Thanked in
    893 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    One concern about teachers teaching literacy is that grammar has not been assessed in the junior cert since, I think, 1990. So many of our primary and secondary teachers have never encountered clauses, gerunds, subject-object-predicate, the preterite etc etc - how can they teach literary without first being taught themselves?
    Oh, the flippin' irony...


    A few words of Finnish is impressive, and I have stubbed enough toes in my time to appreciate the benefits of swearing like a Dutch mariner!!
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

  14. #9
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    771
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    801
    Thanked in
    473 Posts
    Godverdomme teringlul!

    I heard somewhere that we have the shortest school year in Europe. Perhaps increasing teacher numbers to reduce workload during the year, then shortening the holidays, would be of benefit. As far as I'm concerned, education is the number one priority. The money could come from pretty much anywhere else and I wouldn't complain.

  15. #10
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    2,466
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    205
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    258
    Thanked in
    201 Posts
    As EG says, the number of hours spent on teaching Irish doesn't matter, rather than the manner in how it is taught. There's little point in fixating on grammar and written exercises unless the groundwork has been laid with oral and aural skills, complemented with online resources. Similarly, early exposure to new languages is supposed to greatly assist in developing fluency, so even if time has be pared back from each subject at primary level to allow the teaching of an EU language, it would make more sense than this retrograde step.

  16. Thanks From:


  17. #11
    Godless Commie Scum
    Joined
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Co Wickla
    Posts
    11,396
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    138
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    656
    Thanked in
    436 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    There’s a simple solution, though not without cost implications, to teaching religion, too: take it outside regular school hours. Half an hour at classes’ end three times a week is sufficient, and it frees up teaching time during the day. I do believe that religion is too important to be downplayed out of existence, or just left to the parent: at its most basic, ecumenical level it helps create a public morality and sense of ethics, of what is right and wrong, that seems not to be taught in every home in contemporary society.
    Religious indoctrination should be left to the parents and be outside of school time. I don't believe you need an organised religion to have a sense of morality or ethics. The educate together model is perfect and should be the norm in all schools - a general, non denominational religion class and the facilities available after school to churches for things like sacramental preparation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?
    Not convinced forcing the issue in another way would really work either. Would you punish children if they spoke English in the playground? Just creates more resentment. Speaking as someone schooled abroad, who unfortunately doesn't speak Irish, I would say the focus of Irish in schools should be more on being able to speak and converse in it, rather than reading and writing. If the aim is to have it as a genuine 1st/ 2nd language. I'd also apply that to other languages, if that's not how they're done/ were done if they're cut. I did french for 5 years up to GCSE level - couldn't converse in it, but I could probably cobble together a few paragraphs of a letter I had to rote learn for the written exam, which serves no useful purpose.
    If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.

  18. #12
    Reserves
    Joined
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Little island
    Posts
    437
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    23
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    19
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    Eminence - The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

    I am a member of Gael-Taca Chorcaigh Here in Cork we will be running a pilot project with 8-10 English speaking schools to do P.E. through Irish to see if it will improve overall oral skills

  19. #13
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    771
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    801
    Thanked in
    473 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thebooboys View Post
    Eminence - The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

    I am a member of Gael-Taca Chorcaigh Here in Cork we will be running a pilot project with 8-10 English speaking schools to do P.E. through Irish to see if it will improve overall oral skills
    Well, to get the ball rolling, I have my Fáinne Airgead, but can barely speak any Irish any more, I have reasonable French, as in I can order beer and go shopping without too much bother, read articles fine unless they get all technical and esoteric, but Frenchies have to slow down a lot and cimplify their vocabulary before I can actually converse with them.

    I speak a little Dutch as well, enough to read articles and kids' books, but not to speak or understand the language at any sort of speed.

    We used to have "Sacar as Gaeilge" every now and again in primary school, where you had a free kick given if you spoke any English. Far from making us resent it, the aim quickly became to catch out other people. Lots of laughing, lots of fun. We also had a raffle every week, as I recall, you got tickets for speaking Irish around the school, ordering your lunch in the canteen as Gaeilge and the like, and the prize was a Taz Bar or something. Didn't stop people really, really getting into the hunt for ticéadaí though.

  20. #14
    Seasoned Pro
    Joined
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    2,662
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,280
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,854
    Thanked in
    893 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thebooboys View Post
    I am a member of Gael-Taca Chorcaigh Here in Cork we will be running a pilot project with 8-10 English speaking schools to do P.E. through Irish to see if it will improve overall oral skills
    That sounds like a fantastic scheme. I hope it goes well for you.

    @ Macy: I've been teaching/lecturing for 12 years - long enough to know that punishing people is absolutely the wrong way to go. If you get four-year olds accustomed to the language of the playground being Irish, it becomes habit, much as Peadar outlined. Kinda like emphasising the 'language fun' in 'language fundamentalist'!
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

  21. #15
    Reserves EAFC_rdfl's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Athlone/Loughrea
    Posts
    907
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,646
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    108
    Thanked in
    74 Posts
    Loosely related, this is a bit annoying to read - http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0711/eur...pen-forum.html

    Why, when we are struggling to fund education, are the universities not milking any funding money available for research activities? surely it would keep some graduates of the dole queue by letting them do Masters/research work.
    Havin a weekend away is quite frankly,lettin ur team mates down!

  22. #16
    International Prospect jebus's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    6,847
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    13
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    49
    Thanked in
    29 Posts
    Real shame they have done away with this initiative. As much as I hate to say it, a language such as Spanish should take priority over Irish. I went to a Gaelscoil and would have been fluent up until I finished secondary school. Given that I've only ever met a handful of people in my life that would have been able to have a conversation with me in Irish it's practically gone from me now. Shame to say it was pointless, but it pretty much was.

    I work in a multinational company now though, predominant languages spoken there would be French, German, Polish and English and one of my bosses is always stressing to me that having a second or third language counts for loads in my line of work. It opens up so many other opportunities in other countries that I'd be a fool not to learn. I lived in France for a while and picked up the language a bit while I was there, think I might start night classes in that.

    Also, religious studies so be kicked from school altogether. Ideally they'd stay and would teach a basic understanding of all the major faiths, but if money is scarace and cuts need to be made that should be the first to be given the boot

  23. #17
    Seasoned Pro Lionel Ritchie's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Limerick
    Posts
    4,333
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    194
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    285
    Thanked in
    168 Posts
    I hear you Jebus -but there's simply no chance of it happening. The obstacles in the way of that are gigantic, systematic, well dug in and running the show.

    Never mind the actual devout or practicing RCs, you're not going to get the non devout, non practicing RCs -The bouncy castle and limo renting, 4 figure sum on sacrament for seven year old spending, "socially religious" as I call them, to pay for after school or weekend religious education for their kids when it's already provided for in the education system. ...and that's the parents of the kids who are being short changed here.

    We haven't gone near the institutions who design and deliver education.
    " I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"

Similar Threads

  1. Catholic Primary Schools
    By Shilts in forum Current Affairs
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 23/05/2009, 5:22 PM
  2. Foreign languages
    By superfrank in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 30/05/2008, 7:09 AM
  3. Primary School Football
    By strangeirish in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01/02/2007, 2:12 PM
  4. Learning new languages
    By Kingdom in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 04/10/2006, 7:46 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •