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Thread: Bundesliga

  1. #1
    Seasoned Pro legendz's Avatar
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    Bundesliga

    Currently ranked 3rd in Europe according to UEFA's league coefficient ranking. Is this league getting stonger?
    https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
    A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
    Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Yes. Yes it is.
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    First Team IsMiseSean's Avatar
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    Very much so.
    I think it gets the best attendances of any other league in Europe.
    Stadiums & the atmosphere is probably the best in Europe. All the clubs run at a profit, they have strict financial rules to abide by.

    Would love to see some of the Irish lads move over there.
    I'm going to try get over for a Dortmund game this season if I can.

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    First Team irishultra's Avatar
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    Its a league I'd love to see Irish players in. Could really imagine Shane Long with a team like Dortmund.

    lways a good few German born US players playing so I tend to watch a fair few games and always watch highlights show.

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    First Team IsMiseSean's Avatar
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    Bundesliga kicked off this weekend.
    There is now a 1-hour highlights programme showing on Monday nights on ITV4 at 10pm.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    So the inevitable has come to pass.

    Bye bye Mario.



    http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foot...e-8584030.html
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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Struggling to see the logic in this. He will be a great player, but he's at a club with a realistic chance of winning the Champions League so I don't see how joining the queue at a massive squad like Bayern will do anything except upset his development.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Cashmoney Charlie. Cashmoney.

    This was always potentially gonna happen that Dortmund would be victims of their own success. I was shocked tbh honest that he didn't go last year. Once Sahin and then Kagawa went I thought it would be a mass-exodus.
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    This could be worthy of the CL and Financial Fair Play threads too, but there is an interesting talk about German football and its regulation tomorrow (Monday) at Birkbeck College, London:

    http://www.sportbusinesscentre.com/e...rman-football/

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Here's a slightly more critical look at the financial state of German clubs (mainly outside the top tier). The original article is here.

    I can hear geysir licking his lips from here.

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    It's funny, but one of the arguments in favour of licensing and FFP as it relates to England is that it'll attract responsible owners who'd otherwise be deterred from investing because of the losses they'd almost necessarily have to occur. In Germany, responsible owners are deterred by the 50+1 rule, as well as irresponsible owners.

    What has happened at 1860? I know one of their board members but haven't met him since 2009 or 2010. They were getting fleeced by Bayern on their ground-sharing deal.

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    From charlie's link:

    In reality, the licensing procedure is about one single thing only, namely erasing any doubt that a club will be able to complete the following season without becoming insolvent. To this end, a club opens its books to the League and says: this is what we will have to spend - on wages, stadium rent, debt repayment and so on - and this is what we hope to earn - from TV money, ticketing, sponsorship deals and so on. Some clubs even add surety bonds to their documents in which somebody, ideally a bank, promises to come to the rescue if need be.

    In Duisburg's case, the League had too many doubts about too many items on the club's balance sheet. It considered MSV's financial situation to be so shaky that the club would be a risk factor in the Second Bundesliga. Hence the stop sign.

    On the face of it you could say these events prove that the German licensing process, widely regarded as the reason for our clubs' supposed stability, is working well and will be applied with the necessary rigour. However, that's not even half the story.
    Sounds so similar to the FAI licensing system.

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    The Uli Hesse article is very interesting and definitely challenges the conventional wisdom surrounding German regulation and the likely consequences of FFP elsewhere.

    A few points I'd make in response though:
    * Is it that big a deal if Bayern go on to dominate for a while? Football has always had dynasties. There's some research into the popular acceptance of these dynasties and it's felt (but far from proven) that if the success is "legitimate", earned by assembling a great team and having a great coach more than simply spending shedloads on players, then it won't detract from the interest in the league. Bayern have spent money but they have spent it well too. United's dominance stemmed from a remarkable youth team.

    * Leagues aren't just about who wins it: hardly any league in Europe would still be popular if this was the case. There are sub-plots within leagues such as local rivalry, CL qualification, relegation etc.

    * I think Hesse is right to highlight that all's not necessarily rosy in Germany. I attended some of the DCMS hearings into football governance in 2010 or 2011 and a guy from Germany gave evidence. Stefan Szymanski,, the writer and economist, gave evidence the other way, arguing that many German football clubs were still loss making and badly run. We all know that Dortmund nearly went bust.

    * However, I'd contend that Germany is still better in the sense that there isn't the same scale of a systemic crisis than there is in England. Despite ever increasing revenues, the EPL has still never made a collective profit and most clubs are loss making. Wages are over 70% of revenues (higher in the Championship) compared to less than 40% in Germany.

    * Football clubs are like banks in that (unlike supermarkets for example) they co-depend on each other - there are systemic interlinkages. Therefore, if some clubs at the top of the pile are out of control, pressure is placed on everyone to keep up. Ireland had its unique circumstances in its banking blow-up, but it's still true that Anglo's behaviour caused other banks to take more risks, causing the system to collapse. This happened globally in banking.

    * If you listen to what Greg Clarke of the Football League says about debt, you'd certainly believe that there is a genuine systemic crisis in English football, and failure to rein in the likes of Chelsea has had effects lower down the pyramid. I'd argue that despite the evidence of some ill health in Germany it's probably fair to say that their system as a whole is healthier. UEFA wants to make the whole European football system more healthy.

    * Nothing to do with FFP, but I think it's fair to say that Germany is more "joined up" than England. This is more of a governance issue. The Bundesliga and the FA equivalent are closer (not perfectly by any means) aligned than the EPL and the FA. The EPL is a global TV product first and foremost; being the pinnacle of a joined-up domestic game is a distant consideration.

    * Is it a bad thing if Red Bull can't buy Leipzig? There are arguments either way.

    * The Duisberg situation suggests that the BL is becoming close to a franchise league like England's. At the same time, I think it's right that those clubs who can be self-sufficient in the mega money age deserve to be at the top.

    * Just like in banking, FFP won't stop individual clubs going bust. But sound regulation ought to prevent the whole system going bust.

    Anyway, I'm meeting the guy who runs www.financialfairplay.co.uk next week and will ask his views. He's a friend of a friend.

    I'll send him the Hesse article and see what he thinks.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 26/06/2013 at 12:05 PM.

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    I suppose a simpler way of saying what I mean is that speed limits on motorways don't stop all accidents, but they sure make motorways safer for everyone and without really stopping people making their journeys at a reasonable speed.

    Another general point is that while many always object to regulation in all areas of life and business (right wingers in particular) you can never tell really if regulation is working, although it's usually obvious in hindsight when regulation should have been better.

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    Reading that Hesse article about Duisburg, German supporter owned clubs are not immune to financial failure, but imo that does not detract from the model. The board of a German club can make mistakes, can elect poor administrators etc.
    Regardless, the German model stands out with it's 51% supporter protection. Much of the protection for clubs as primarily a sporting club entity, lies in the strength of its constitution and the constitution of the (collective) administration body who regulate the clubs. It has withstood a pernicious take over attempts by Red Bull, but the corporate interests deviously look for other ways to penetrate.
    The other day, I was having a (yet another) look at Fritz Laing's M, a German film from the 1930's, about the hunt for a child killer in Berlin. A big part of the film dealt with the underworld, fed up with the intolerable heat from the police (bad for business), and who got actively involved with finding the killer. The underworld was organised from top to bottom, even the the lowest creatures on the street, the street beggars, were already organised into a union, with union cards, union reps, begging territory patches, union regulations and had their man on the underworld committee board. The whole underworld was whipped into effective methodical action to find the killer. German social structure is culturally embedded and not an easy one to topple.
    Regulation after the horse has bolted is a different scenario, like with the EPL.
    One thing that's different with say EPL clubs than corporations, is that the massive income are being swallowed up by transfer fees and higher profile players' contracts, not by the shareholders. Money has flooded into the game from the viewing public but has mainly gone into players' pockets. Possibly the introduction of a salary cap, eg if the minimum contract is 250k p/a then the maximum is 2.5m p/a, as one type of control.

    I see the Dutch Eredvise equally distribute their tv money, about 4m p/a to each of the 18 clubs.

  17. #16
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    That Fritz Laing analogy is Early-esque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    even the the lowest creatures on the street, the street beggars, were already organised into a union,
    In England they're involved in football.

    FFP goes further than player wage caps. They encourage clubs to invest for the long term rather than spend for the short term. They restrict certain expenditures in much the same way a salary cap would, so in my opinion FFP is probably a better model.

    Further regulation I'd like to see in principle - although the horse has already bolted out of the stable, breaking a bottle and setting a genie free in the process:

    - Mandatory governance change: The national association should have control over all aspects of the professional and amateur game. Transparency, strong checks and balance mechanisms etc to be made mandatory too. National leagues and associations should be subjected to UEFA licensing too.
    - Mandatory ownership restrictions. Exceptions will need to be allowed but maybe subject to even stricter financial rules than member-owned clubs to prevent opportunism.
    - More equal distributions.
    - Contingent contracts across Europe - players to take a mandatory cut (increase) in pay if centralised distributions fall (rise), calculated by way of an adjustment factor. Base Case Wage (e.g., assuming club meets expected league position) * (actual distributions / base case distributions)
    - UEFA itself to become more transparent and accountable
    - Not allowing private owners to own more than one club globally.
    - Mandatory company structure. Introduce concept of unlimited liability. My dad is a trustee of his tennis club. If the club goes bust my dad is personally on the hook. Law forms and accounting firms are structured like this. It restrains the risk taking urge. In football private parties gain in good times, public parties lose in bad. Just like banking again.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 26/06/2013 at 3:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    In England they're involved in football.

    FFP goes further than player wage caps. They encourage clubs to invest for the long term rather than spend for the short term. They restrict certain expenditures in much the same way a salary cap would, so in my opinion FFP is probably a better model.

    Further regulation I'd like to see in principle - although the horse has already bolted out of the stable, breaking a bottle and setting a genie free in the process:

    - Mandatory governance change: The national association should have control over all aspects of the professional and amateur game. Transparency, strong checks and balance mechanisms etc to be made mandatory too. National leagues and associations should be subjected to UEFA licensing too.
    - Mandatory ownership restrictions. Exceptions will need to be allowed but maybe subject to even stricter financial rules than member-owned clubs to prevent opportunism.
    - More equal distributions.
    - Contingent contracts across Europe - players to take a mandatory cut (increase) in pay if centralised distributions fall (rise), calculated by way of an adjustment factor. Base Case Wage (e.g., assuming club meets expected league position) * (actual distributions / base case distributions)
    - UEFA itself to become more transparent and accountable
    - Not allowing private owners to own more than one club globally.
    - Mandatory company structure. Introduce concept of unlimited liability. My dad is a trustee of his tennis club. If the club goes bust my dad is personally on the hook. Law forms and accounting firms are structured like this. It restrains the risk taking urge. In football private parties gain in good times, public parties lose in bad. Just like banking again.
    I wasn't suggesting a salary cap as a replacement for FPP. You're indulging in flippancy Stutts.
    Considering the main club expenditures are players' contracts, it's a practical suggestion to hit that one directly and have salary caps as a part of FPP. Already we can see the FFP regulations are not going to affect the various ways how millions can be funnelled into certain clubs without breaching FFP. I would go so far as to say, that without a salary cap there is no serious intent for Fair Play in the league. FFP will protect both the status quo clubs and the nouveau riche clubs. The regulatory authority will always be 10 steps behind a club like Man City or PSG.
    Breaching the inequalities is nigh impossible on the field of play, when Bayern with an extra 200m of income, can scoop up Dortmund's best player, by offering a gilded contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    That Fritz Laing analogy is Early-esque.
    I take that as a backhander, that my post was a useless piece of turd, that you could only find it in your heart to offer the lowest form of derision.

    I retort that your reply was lazy, insulting and typically uncultured.

  22. #20
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    No, I thought you had a good point, I just thought the analogy was funny

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