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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    No, I thought you had a good point, I just thought the analogy was funny
    Well that elevates it from what I had intended, germane and informative, to something miraculous. Not just anybody can present an analogy from a dark, ultra Germanic, Fritz Laing film, for someone to derive a degree of mirth from.

  2. #22
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    Interesting content/links in this thread.
    Will bring to the attention of my various Germanic associates in due course.

    Bizarre analogies aside...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    I wasn't suggesting a salary cap as a replacement for FPP. You're indulging in flippancy Stutts.
    Considering the main club expenditures are players' contracts, it's a practical suggestion to hit that one directly and have salary caps as a part of FPP. Already we can see the FFP regulations are not going to affect the various ways how millions can be funnelled into certain clubs without breaching FFP. I would go so far as to say, that without a salary cap there is no serious intent for Fair Play in the league. FFP will protect both the status quo clubs and the nouveau riche clubs. The regulatory authority will always be 10 steps behind a club like Man City or PSG.
    Breaching the inequalities is nigh impossible on the field of play, when Bayern with an extra 200m of income, can scoop up Dortmund's best player, by offering a gilded contract.
    tbh I wasn't tryinmg to engage in flippancy, I simply thought you were advocating salary caps by themselves.

    Salary caps are already "in" FFP to a certain degree. Although the breakeven requirement is the cornerstone, the licensor has the right to intervene if a club breaches a 70% (I think) wage-to-turnover ratio. "Intervene" doesn't mean anything prescribed, but the club must satisfy the licensor that despite breaching the percentage it's still confident it is not heading towards a deterioration that would lead to not breaking even. It's more of an early warning sign prompting remedial action agreed between club and licensor rather than the actual hard test.

    wrt sidestepping the rules, I'm not sure I understand how a wage cap linked to turnover can be better than FFP if the turnover number is the same in each calculation.

    By "no serious test of FFP in the league" do you mean the EPL and its own version of FFP? The EPL's FFP rule allows clubs to lose £105mm over 3 seasons, so £35mm per season on average. There's also a hard cap on wages and wage inflation year-on-year based on a grid of some sorts, depending on the existing wage bill. I think it's a % of TV money received (60%?) which means that non-TV income can also be spent over and above this.

    Have you heard what PSG has done to try and comply with FFP? They have moved a huge chunk of Qatari sponsorship income (the amount itself possibly in breach of the arm's length tests) into a prior year's accounts - recording income in 2011 for a shirt deal only signed in 2013!

    From www.financialfairplay.co.uk :

    In January 2013, PSG announced that it had signed a huge deal with the Qatar Tourist Authority (QTA). The precise amount of the deal was a little vague but it appears the revenue may be around €200m a year. When the deal was announced the club advised that it would be backdated – at the time many believed this meant to the beginning of the 2012/13 season. However Le Parisien reported that the deal would actually be backdated to the previous season. Now that we see figures, it is apparent that this is exactly what the club has done – a deal agreed in January 2013 for promoting the Qatar Tourist Authority has been backdated to the year before the deal actually existed!

    It is interesting to note that for all that money, the QTA don’t even get their names on the club shirts (that honour goes to Emirates airline). All QTA receive for their money is the rather nebulous benefit of association with the club (plus promotion within the ground). Even if the stories about renaming the 'Parc de princes' as 'Parc de Qatar' ultimately turn out to true, it’s hardly a decent return for the €325m that they have already paid to the club.

    Fortunately, this outrageous deal will be assessed by UEFA’s CFCB panel. It is very likely that QTA would be considered to be ‘related’ to the PSG owners (both have the same beneficial owners - the Qatari government). Under UEFA FFP rules, all ‘related party transactions’ will have to be assessed by the CFCB and a ‘fair value’ assigned to the deal. Determining a ‘fair-value’ won’t be easy but the panel will look at precedents such as the Azerbaijan Tourist Board’s €20m a year shirt sponsorship of Atletico Madrid. The CFCB panel are actually independent from UEFA and, as we saw with their decision to ban Malaga from the UEFA competition for having ‘overdue payables’, they are prepared to take tough decisions. The writing appears to be on the wall for PSG - in January UEFA General Secretary Infantino warned PSG that they could not ‘cheat’ the rules.


    For me, all the indications point to PSG being banned from UEFA competitions from 2014/15 as a result of failing the FFP Break Even test. However, the position is actually potentially more serious (and interesting) for PSG
    .

    Anyway, this should maybe be moved to the FFP thread? It's all related I know, but...

  4. #24
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    btw, I though Earley's piece on Blatter comparing him and his stewardship of FIFA to the oligarch class and the 1% was on the money.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    tbh I wasn't tryinmg to engage in flippancy, I simply thought you were advocating salary caps by themselves.

    Salary caps are already "in" FFP to a certain degree. Although the breakeven requirement is the cornerstone, the licensor has the right to intervene if a club breaches a 70% (I think) wage-to-turnover ratio. "Intervene" doesn't mean anything prescribed, but the club must satisfy the licensor that despite breaching the percentage it's still confident it is not heading towards a deterioration that would lead to not breaking even. It's more of an early warning sign prompting remedial action agreed between club and licensor rather than the actual hard test.

    wrt sidestepping the rules, I'm not sure I understand how a wage cap linked to turnover can be better than FFP if the turnover number is the same in each calculation.

    By "no serious test of FFP in the league" do you mean the EPL and its own version of FFP? The EPL's FFP rule allows clubs to lose £105mm over 3 seasons, so £35mm per season on average. There's also a hard cap on wages and wage inflation year-on-year based on a grid of some sorts, depending on the existing wage bill. I think it's a % of TV money received (60%?) which means that non-TV income can also be spent over and above this.

    Have you heard what PSG has done to try and comply with FFP? They have moved a huge chunk of Qatari sponsorship income (the amount itself possibly in breach of the arm's length tests) into a prior year's accounts - recording income in 2011 for a shirt deal only signed in 2013!

    From www.financialfairplay.co.uk :

    In January 2013, PSG announced that it had signed a huge deal with the Qatar Tourist Authority (QTA). The precise amount of the deal was a little vague but it appears the revenue may be around €200m a year. When the deal was announced the club advised that it would be backdated – at the time many believed this meant to the beginning of the 2012/13 season. However Le Parisien reported that the deal would actually be backdated to the previous season. Now that we see figures, it is apparent that this is exactly what the club has done – a deal agreed in January 2013 for promoting the Qatar Tourist Authority has been backdated to the year before the deal actually existed!

    It is interesting to note that for all that money, the QTA don’t even get their names on the club shirts (that honour goes to Emirates airline). All QTA receive for their money is the rather nebulous benefit of association with the club (plus promotion within the ground). Even if the stories about renaming the 'Parc de princes' as 'Parc de Qatar' ultimately turn out to true, it’s hardly a decent return for the €325m that they have already paid to the club.

    Fortunately, this outrageous deal will be assessed by UEFA’s CFCB panel. It is very likely that QTA would be considered to be ‘related’ to the PSG owners (both have the same beneficial owners - the Qatari government). Under UEFA FFP rules, all ‘related party transactions’ will have to be assessed by the CFCB and a ‘fair value’ assigned to the deal. Determining a ‘fair-value’ won’t be easy but the panel will look at precedents such as the Azerbaijan Tourist Board’s €20m a year shirt sponsorship of Atletico Madrid. The CFCB panel are actually independent from UEFA and, as we saw with their decision to ban Malaga from the UEFA competition for having ‘overdue payables’, they are prepared to take tough decisions. The writing appears to be on the wall for PSG - in January UEFA General Secretary Infantino warned PSG that they could not ‘cheat’ the rules.


    For me, all the indications point to PSG being banned from UEFA competitions from 2014/15 as a result of failing the FFP Break Even test. However, the position is actually potentially more serious (and interesting) for PSG
    .

    Anyway, this should maybe be moved to the FFP thread? It's all related I know, but...
    I don't think that salary capping would have any better effect than FFP, preventing club owners' side stepping the FFP rules/guidelines. I said it should be a part of FFP. Is it such a radical idea to regulate players' contracts as well as the clubs? I'd say FFP as it stands now, won't effect a levelling out of the playing field.
    If Van Persie wants to go to a top club like Man U from Arsenal in order to win trophies, fair enough, Arsenal get compensated with the transfer fee and VP gets a % of that, but we also have the murkiness of Man U's financial muscle entitling them to offer twice the contract to lure the player away from Arsenal. There is a need for some imposed rationality on the limit of what a player can earn.
    The core idea of FFP is that a club's spending should be related to football (related) income.
    The top clubs with financial acumen/backing will still get the best players.
    The argument for salary capping is mainly 2 fold, I'd argue that clubs with the financial muscle will not always be able to get all the best players by offering 'silly money' contracts and that clubs outside the top 1, top 2 or top 3, in their league will have a better chance to compete.
    On PSG.
    When a club like PSG can effect a legal accounting trick to back date a sponsorship deal, is there is anything FFP can do? I think there is nothing the regulators can do because they haven't a leg to stand on. It would not survive a legal challenge. In that regard, there are some waffly sentiments from the FFP regulators. I bet you they will not have any clout to effect any significant sanction against PSG for that sleight of hand.
    On it's own, FFP as it stands, will not have that much effect on levelling the playing field. I think in that interview with Samuel, Platini was quite frank with the size of the task, the obstacles, recognising that this FFP is just a start in an environment where pernicious self interest groups have taken root and had a free hand, and where the top clubs have also made the laws. There's no debate whether FFP regulation is needed or not, it is desperately needed.
    Earlier I wrote that the horse has already bolted in the EPL. I just meant in regard to the ways the EPL clubs are constituted as compared to the Bundesliga and the way EPL clubs are owned, bought and sold.

  6. #26
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    I know, and much of that I have already agreed with! In another post I argued that players' contracts need to be addressed and made proportional to certain central distributions. I agree with regard to ownership and the horse having bolted in England. I added a genie being set loose too

    Also, bear in mind "levelling the playing field" is categorically NOT a reason for FFP. UEFA would subject itself to much more legal scrutiny if this was an explicit goal (I posted the rationale for this on the FFP thread in response to an Irish lawyer's article in the Sindo). Systemic financial stability and sustainable investment are the main goals - legitimate goals and FFP are probably proportional means of achieving them. These will be the ECJ's criteria in assessing FFP's validity in light of the Striani challenge. Achieving a level playing field might not be seen as a legitimate objective by the ECJ, so UEFA would leave itself open here.

    I hear you when you say it's not what you're arguing, but either way I don't think a hard salary cap would a better impact, even if implemented within the broader FFP. United only spend 40-something % of turnover on wages. They can afford more Van Persies even if a hard salary cap was imposed. Only more equitable (almost communist) redistribution would level the competitive playing field. But football isn't (yet fully) like closed franchise leagues like the NFL. It's just wrong that Wigan could earn as much as United!

    I think yer man Ed Thompson made a good point in his website. Yes, United have more money than most but they also have had the best manager. This is a phenomenal combination. It'll be interesting to see whether Moyes can achieve the same with similar resources. I'd argue that even taking into account Arsenal's model that they have underachieved. I think Wenger's approach to the game has flaws and with the same budget should be doing better.

    It remains to be seen whether the likes of PSG get away with it. Neither of us knows.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 28/06/2013 at 1:53 PM.

  7. #27
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    What's the situation in terms of TV coverage now that ESPN will be replaced by BT - will it still be included at no extra cost by UPC?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by culloty82 View Post
    What's the situation in terms of TV coverage now that ESPN will be replaced by BT - will it still be included at no extra cost by UPC?
    It seems Setanta are getting into bed with BT over this side of the Irish sea so to get BT Sports you'll have to subscribe to Setanta. BT Sports are taking a lot of the rights that ESPN (UK-IRL) had so you'll have to subscribe.

    EDIT: FAQ here- http://www.setanta.com/ie/gamechanger/
    Last edited by BonnieShels; 05/07/2013 at 2:49 PM.
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    Yeah, I'd a look at that, but that just seems to be the prices for people who pay for subscriptions already. Looks like they've only done deals with Sky so far.

  10. #30
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    That's right. The head of Setanta was on the Last Word a couple of weeks ago after the BT Sport launch and he said they were still talking to UPC.

    I'd say the discussions are slightly complicated by the fact that ESPN and Setanta Ireland are free on UPC at present.
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    Interesting SB Nation article looking at the plight of east German football since the fall of the Berlin Wall: http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/...rmany-football

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    The plight must be spreading to the West side, when you consider Dortmund 2015 - the hangover kicks in.

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    Here's hoping the trip to La Manga has them ready for the Leverkusen game on the 31st.
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    "Dortmund lose again" must be the most used headline in the German sports pages, this time at home to a team with 10 men for the last 30 minutes and now they find themselves rooted to bottom spot in the league table.

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    Be grand. All part of the plan to hoodwink you naysayers.
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    Are they playing to the gallery a bit with these acts of unity with the supporters? Maybe I'm just a cynical aul fecker.


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    I'd like to think they actually care..

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    Bundesliga supporters are actually taken seriously and not viewed as passive and disenfranchised consumers, like how they are treated in the UK where supporter culture is slowly being killed off. For one of Europe's major leagues, tickets are much cheaper there than in, say, England and they can even drink/stand at games. Just because there is little to no interaction between players and supporters in England doesn't mean displays of connection elsewhere are to be suspected as being false. Italy is the same; the ultras there have a big say in what happens at their clubs. Players understand supporter culture and appreciate it. Francesco Totti often finds himself engaging face-to-face with the leaders of Roma's ultras. Gianluca Buffon is another player who I've always noticed engaging meaningfully with the supporters who make doing what he does possible. Indeed, he thought the Irish support at the Euros was inspiring. So, yes, outside of England, some people still believe in football's soul, thankfully. A football club need not be small or parochial in order to embrace and nurture the idea of community.






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  20. #39
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    Not sure if I shared this before but you would not see this kind of reception in the Premier League for a player that made 3 mistakes in a game that cost 3 goals and look at how the fans reacted to him at the end of the game.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF_EMVroX5w


    Also, Braunschweig got relegated last season and look at how the fans reacted to it, quite incredible really.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5asWERr8-8

  21. #40
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    The Bundesliga is a very good example of being able to maintain football at the top level, as a sport that a minimum wage earner can still afford to support and attend.
    However, I wouldn't get too excited by some noisy german fans, on the other hand I was stunned by the rousing whole hearted reception given by the obviously gutted Lech Poznan fans, towards the tiny club that beat them after their team suffered a shock exit from the EL and once that was done, resumed giving their team a right verbal bollócking.
    That's what I would call real supporters of their club.


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