Should Trapattoni manage Ireland for the 2014 World Cup Campaign?

[paul_oshea]

I don't need to embarass anyone here stutts, we all know, and they should know too.

You for a start :P Ah no you weren't as blinded by the bright lights to be fair.

[DannyInvincible]

I thought that was what they told Dunne to takea family a holiday before deciding on retiring?

Perhaps I misread it, but was nearly sure it was in relation to Trap. Not sure where it was now.

Its all so funny how the Trapologists are now calling for Trap to resign.

Supporters Fans are a fickle bunch alright.

New factors have come to light though. I'm not exactly calling for him to resign now, but these factors are worth bringing into consideration. The whole squad demanded a rest-day due to the intensive training regime, Gibson is considering his international future, McClean described the experience as "a shambles" and Stephen Hunt was apparently in tears as he "stormed out" (to the team bus, presumably). Hunt had been promised game-time by Trap. If Trap has lost the dressing room and the players' issues are valid, it's difficult to see how he might be able to continue.

[paul_oshea]

Wow why do people now care what the palyers think? They didn't before hand and scoffed at Hunt throwing a tantrum in Dublin? Seriously that really p1sses me off. People said MCgeady was a professional player and should be well able for the training. Now everyones attitude has changed. I couldn't give a sh1te about hunt not playing, he wouldn't have made a difference players aren't there to feed their egos or to get game time like an u12s match. McClean has just joined the squad he should keep schtum.

What did worry me from the start though is everyones horn for the leetle details and thought how great Trap was and right he was for ousting "percerived trouble makers", his system was very rigid, lads had long seasons behind htem and yet little time for rest or a break(with family etc) before the tournament. I think Hodgson got that side of things spot on to be honest. ALl this perparation and crap, and it did absolutely nothing, actually not true, it seems to have ****ed a large number of the squad off and alienated potential star players for the future.

Also mentioned that all the time, when there seemed to be trouble between Trap and players, and people said it was just miscommunication or nothing happening, some feared that it would come to a head, i Think that time has now arrived.

[Stuttgart88]

Paul, I stated my exact historical opinion of Trap quite clearly last week and I think you decided to ignore it. Some here always see things as simple black or white. I was glass half full on Trap nearly all the time, whereas you seem to be always glass virtually empty (I think that was literally the case in Poland ).

I quoted Keynes here recently: "When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do sir?" though it has since been brought to my attention that Churchill said it first so I'm less inclined to use it now! But that's what I've done - updated my opinion based on updated events. More evidence (or accusation, more accurately) of woeful man management is turning me right against him.

Keano for Kazakhstan (half in jest, half in despair).

[Stuttgart88]

Wow why do people now care what the palyers think? They didn't before hand and scoffed at Hunt throwing a tantrum in Dublin? Seriously that really p1sses me off. People said MCgeady was a professional player and should be well able for the training. Now everyones attitude has changed. I couldn't give a sh1te about hunt not playing, he wouldn't have made a difference players aren't there to feed their egos or to get game time like an u12s match. McClean has just joined the squad he should keep schtum.

What did worry me from the start though is everyones horn for the leetle details and thought how great Trap was and right he was for ousting "percerived trouble makers", his system was very rigid, lads had long seasons behind htem and yet little time for rest or a break(with family etc) before the tournament. I think Hodgson got that side of things spot on to be honest. ALl this perparation and crap, and it did absolutely nothing, actually not true, it seems to have ****ed a large number of the squad off and alienated potential star players for the future.

Wow, I don't think I've ever read two paragraphs written by the same person that contradict each other as much as those two do.

[paul_oshea]

Paul, I stated my exact historical opinion of Trap quite clearly last week and I think you decided to ignore it. Some here always see things as simple black or white. I was glass half full on Trap nearly all the time, whereas you seem to be always glass virtually empty (I think that was literally the case in Poland ).

I quoted Keynes here recently: "When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do sir?" though it has since been brought to my attention that Churchill said it first so I'm less inclined to use it now! But that's what I've done - updated my opinion based on updated events. More evidence (or accusation, more accurately) of woeful man management is turning me right against him.

Keano for Kazakhstan (half in jest, half in despair).

I don't think its updated events, i think its the results - which some people felt was the inevitable, and proved so at the Euros - and now these same events that were occuring throughout his tenure are no longer being ignored but to back the points at hand.

I didn't contradict myself, I'm speaking from the viewpoint, why do people now care about the players side of things, when it didn't matter before,it was more of a rhetorical question.

yes the glass virtually empty was definitely true - as my embarassing moment on Craig Doyle showed after the Italy game

[Stuttgart88]

But who said the players' side of things didn't matter before?

The evidence was that some players were taking the p1ss with regard to behaviour and turning up when it suited them. Trap was right to assert his authority. But nobody was unconcerned with man management and communication issues.

When a manager loses the dressing room it's almost always the end. Had Trap lost the dressing room before Euro 2012 and the preparation in Dublin? I doubt it. Therefore I do think it's updated events.

If it was only the results I wouldn't be that fussed, they were hardly unexpected.

[Junior]

So Paul, we only have 6 points after 3 games, assume we lose at home to Germany. Are you praying that Trap Resigns or are you putting your hand in your pocket to help Denis and the FAI pay him off?......or perhaps you will shift your forthright views (As Sweden dropped points away to the Faroes). What was it Churchill said.......

EDIT.

Stutts stop even joking about Keane as manager its unnerving me.

Question for ye all. How many great players have become great managers over the years?

I can think of plenty of examples of very ordinary players (if indeed some of them made the grade) that are/were great managers. Stein, Ferguson, Mourhino some obvious examples. Could you put Wenger in that category? probably 5 or 6 years ago...less so now.

King Kenny (a great player) was a great manager (achieved great success) at Liverpool/Blackburn. Not so at Newcastle,Celtic.

Is Royston destined never to be a great manager?

What was Cruyffs managerial record like? think he had some bust ups with club boards I recall not sure how he did honours wise. Rinus Michels played for Ajax but only 5 international caps (thanks wiki).

Would like some examples if you have any? (a bit off topic I know)

[paul_oshea]

We will fight them on the beaches?

Loads of people stutts, the point is this, there have been KPIs throughout traps tenure, that he was falling out with players, and his man(mis-)-management was atrocious, whether its trouble makers or players not showing up, or trap getting players confused. It all resulted generally in the same thing, a big hulabaloo with loads of people second guessing, and then the usual suspects saying it was being read the wrong way and nothing was wrong, happy boat sailing to the promised land.

So lets take the McGeady and Gibson and Hunt thing, i read before i left that gibson had been disciplined for going to meet friends/family when he was supposed to be in the team hotel, I read on here that "Mcgeady is a paid professional" etc etc and that he should be well used to training - even though it now appears after watching Ireland stagger around over 3 games that they were tired, they were sluggish, they were over-worked. Hunt throwing a strop during the bosnia game, everyone was saying to cop on. So why change the attitude towards trap and his player mis-management, when there have been key signs, and rumptions in the past? Other than the fact that we lost 3 games badly, I don't see why the attitudes have changed? Its hardly because McClean has come out and said something, as he is the only other player to come out and complain or at least that we know about. These were things people agreed with before hte tournament, and were apparent before and will be long after with Traps management. So why care now, other than we were crap and people are realising that the whole campaign was a shambles? From results, to leetle details, to training, to socialising? You reap what you sow.

Funny I thought we looked so fresh and up for it against Bosnia.

[paul_oshea]

So Paul, we only have 6 points after 3 games, assume we lose at home to Germany. Are you praying that Trap Resigns or are you putting your hand in your pocket to help Denis and the FAI pay him off?......or perhaps you will shift your forthright views (As Sweden dropped points away to the Faroes). What was it Churchill said.......

EDIT.

Stutts stop even joking about Keane as manager its unnerving me.

Question for ye all. How many great players have become great managers over the years?

I can think of plenty of examples of very ordinary players (if indeed some of them made the grade) that are/were great managers. Stein, Ferguson, Mourhino some obvious examples. Could you put Wenger in that category? probably 5 or 6 years ago...less so now.

King Kenny (a great player) was a great manager (achieved great success) at Liverpool/Blackburn. Not so at Newcastle,Celtic.

Is Royston destined never to be a great manager?

What was Cruyffs managerial record like? think he had some bust ups with club boards I recall not sure how he did honours wise. Rinus Michels played for Ajax but only 5 international caps (thanks wiki).

Would like some examples if you have any? (a bit off topic I know)

Do you think perhaps that if someone is so good in one position, that they don't have to work as hard, naturally at least, and therefore they don't have focus on other positions, only their own. Whereas those who are average players have a better understanding of overall positions and tactics etc. Its a simplistic view, but i'd imagine intelligence also plays a factor.

Junior honest, not fortright. I just hate the way people can be fickle about things when indicators are there from the start. But to be honest, if we were to get 7 points from those 3 games, I really don't think in the next few months we could get someone in who could return better results than Trap. I do certianly think longer term we could though. Look trap could adopt a 451 in the near future and employ our best players in our best positions and all will be backing Trap again - i dont believe he will completely remove the shackles or change his principles but change in personnell for sure.

To quote a once great manager "the faroes, they will create problems for many teams".

[Junior]

You've lost me a bit there POS

I am guessing half that post is for another thread and the other half means "Yes, I would put my hand in my pocket to help pay off Traps contract but Im praying we get those 7 points because I have a stag to go on and the rent needs paying etc.etc..etc.."

[Stuttgart88]

I just hate the way people can be fickle about things when indicators are there from the start.

Well I've stated my view and it's not fickle one jot. An indicator is one thing, a definitive fact is yet another.

[Noelys Guitar]

Its all shades of Berti Vogts with Scotland. And Delaney said in yesterdays inteview with the Indo that he would be sitting down with Trap to go over things. What exactly is Delaney going to tell Trap? You must pick such and such a player. This is all going to end in tears and sooner than I thought.

[SkStu]

I thought that was what they told Dunne to takea family a holiday before deciding on retiring?.

that's what I read also.

By the way, I don't think he deserves any more time with this team. And like you, Paul, I'm beginning to feel vindicated about the reservations I've had since his first squad and press conference that he was not the man for as he just never rated us. I've caught a few waves since then but overall that gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach just refused to go away.

[SkStu]

Also, we need a man-manager, with in-depth knowledge of our players pool and good communication skills. Stutts, I did complain quite vocally at the times you mention above about Traps massive failings in this regard.

(ignoring the trap compensation issue), McCarthy for 2014?

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I appreciate that you've always been quite consistyent actually.

[mypost]

Having said all that, there's no doubt he will be kept on and I can only hope he now realised the need to give the younger lads a shot and maybe get the team playing more. Otherwise we might be in for a bleak couple of years.

The flops at these championships will be replaced.

We got to our first tournament in 10 years, were put in a very difficult group, and got the results people expected from that group. Before then, we lost 2 games in 24, and moved 20-30 places up the rankings under this coach. There is no need for radical surgery on the coaching side.

My hope, which wont happen, is to keep him for the year, get over the first couple of games and get rid of him, hodgson has shown that you can take over a team with limited time and get results, though I know its a bit radical. I just think its too soon to get someone in for the september and october games. I still think he can get us a win in Kazhakstan with his crap football.

Hodgson with his far superior players, is still in the tournament obviously.

We are more than capable of going to Kazachstan and getting the points, and the Faroes as well. That's at least 6 points won before the trip to Sweden.

Its all shades of Berti Vogts with Scotland.

Remind me what tournaments he qualified them for again?

[Stuttgart88]

Look, I've veered towards glass half empty now based on my interpretation of Euro 2012 events and more importantly the Rowan stuff which might well just be scurrilous hearsay. For example, I was in Sopot and thought the hotel was sufficiently far away from the main strip to be quiet and away from the fans' drinking but Rowan says otherwise. But the Rowan stuff is what has tipped me to half empty, and a bit beyond. Trap appears to have made a balls of the post-qualification phase.

The fact that his qualification record was relatively emphatic was what kept me the other side. If he has lost the dressing room the chances of a good qualification campaign are massively reduced.

[Closed Account 2]

Who could we get in to replace him? Mick McCarthy ? I really don't see that going well. In the cold light of day he didn't get us to France 98, didn't get us to Holland/Belgium 2000 and played a big part in us not getting to Euro 2004. He probably had a better team than the current one with both Keanes, Duff and Given being at their best and being World Class players.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I quoted Keynes here recently: "When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do sir?" though it has since been brought to my attention that Churchill said it first so I'm less inclined to use it now! But that's what I've done - updated my opinion based on updated events. More evidence (or accusation, more accurately) of woeful man management is turning me right against him.

Keano for Kazakhstan (half in jest, half in despair).

Feck, I'd rather have had John Maynard Keynes as Ireland manager than the other eejit you suggest...