Italy V Republic of Ireland - Monday, 18th June 2012 - Euro 2012 Group C

[tricky_colour]

Shame we didn't get the luck of the English.

[geysir]

True story: I've never heard the word 'guile' used outside the context of Street Fighter or Ireland's midfield.

Andrews has plenty of guile. There's a reason he had more shots on goal during the tournament than all of our strikers combined.

Our midfield has been poor, both of our midfield players. A few shots on goal doesn't hide that performance nor does it compensate for other deficiencies., nor does it define midfield guile.
Andrews could do a job as back up in the next campaign, he's also getting on in football years. If our future midfield is going to depend on Keith as first choice, we have not an earthly of developing a team that can play football.
Both Andrews and Whelan define the midfield style that has become a plague, it functioned on occasions, more so when the other team was more poor or when they dropped back, that midfield can be read like a book and we are looking at 3rd or 4th place with that pairing in the next qualifiers.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Whelan is more likely to be consigned to back up, or should be.

Andrews is going to miss two games so change will be forced. I'm a bit like a broken record here but I think Andrews and Gibson with one other could be good - the one other most likely being McCarthy but Whelan deserves a look in a 3. I really like Andrews' athleticism and if midfield is somewhat secured and he is freed up a bit I think he has more to give. Our midfield two are perpetually on the back foot. As my mate said in the pub last night we always play 2 midfielders against 3 better midfielders so what chance do they have?

[shakermaker1982]

I'd ditch both. McCarthy, Fahey, Meyler & Gibson can duke it out for the spots.

[geysir]

AFAIA, cards picked up at the Euro Final's competition do not carry over to the WC qualification, even if the cards accumulate for a suspension.
Andrews could function with McCarthy and Gibson. Fahey's injury record rules him out.
We can assume that a player like Andrews who depends mainly on athleticism is going to lose a precious few degrees from now on, he's nearly 32 years old now

[the bear]

pretty sure that red card would have him suspended

[geysir]

I'm not sure about a straight red, but 99% sure that yellow cards no matter how many, do not carry over to the WC qualifiers.

edit
At least that's how I understand this

1. 21.05 Cautions and pending yellow-card suspensions from the final tournament expire atthe end of the competition.
   
   
   taken from http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/...7_download.pdf

[the bear]

thats true, so sledger who had two yellows wont be suspended, but andrews will with his red. i think

[Irwin3]

Andrews definitely misses one game. Speculation that UEFA could increase it to two for his reaction.

http://www.setanta.com/ie/Articles/2...n/gnid-145411/

[geysir]

Maybe I have misunderstood it.. I thought that there was a difference between picking up 2 yellows in the same game as distinct from a straight red.
So, Andrews is not looking at a yellow card suspension, he is facing a red card suspension?
That competition rule just applies to cards picked up in different games at the Finals?

[Irwin3]

"In the event a player is sent off for two bookable offences, only the red card is counted for disciplinary purposes. However, in the event a player receives a direct red card after being booked in the same match, then both cards are counted. If the player was already facing a suspension for two tournament bookings when he was sent off, this would result in separate suspensions that would be served consecutively. The one match ban for the yellow cards would be served first unless the player's team is eliminated in the match in which he was sent off. If the player's team is eliminated in the match in which he was serving his ban for the yellow cards, then the ban for the sending off would be carried over to the World Cup qualifiers."

"The FDC further stipulates that if a player is sent off during his team's final Euro 2008 match, the suspension carries over to his team's next competitive international(s).^[1] For Euro 2012 these would be the qualification matches for the 2014 FIFA World Cup."

"If UEFA suspends a player after his team's elimination from the tournament, or for more games than the team ends up playing without him prior to the final or their elimination (whichever comes first), then the remaining suspension must be served during World Cup qualifying."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Eu...plinary_record

As I understand it, if we were still in the Euro's he would be facing a two match ban. One for being on two yellows and one for getting sent off (The bold part above). Edit - Or maybe not due to the first sentence.

Yellow card suspensions don't carry over but red card suspensions do, so he faces an automatic one match ban for the next competitive game - WCQ against Kazakhstan.

[magicman]

I think Whelan is more likely to be consigned to back up, or should be.

Andrews is going to miss two games so change will be forced. I'm a bit like a broken record here but I think Andrews and Gibson with one other could be good - the one other most likely being McCarthy but Whelan deserves a look in a 3. I really like Andrews' athleticism and if midfield is somewhat secured and he is freed up a bit I think he has more to give. Our midfield two are perpetually on the back foot. As my mate said in the pub last night we always play 2 midfielders against 3 better midfielders so what chance do they have?

Exactly. People are talking about dropping both and let the younger crowd fight out for the two remaining spots. Whelan and Andrews maybe limited but does anybody honestly think a midfield duo of Gibson and McCarthy could have done much better in the last 3 games? They still would have been outnumbered and overrun. We need to play 3 midfielders and whether people like it or not, Andrews and Whelan deserve a shot at it from the start. Andrews will be suspended for the first qualifier so if McCarthy and Gibson come in, then it will be up to them to keep Keith out when he gets back

[Charlie Darwin]

A midfield of McCarthy and Gibson would have sat even deeper and been less mobile than Andrews and Whelan. Both players would be good in a midfield three, but in a two I don't think they (or Stephen Ireland, or Wes Hoolahan) can play together.

[Dunners]

The future has to be 3 man central midfield McCarthy (our best midfielder by far) Gibson ,McCann or Meylor
If needed Wilson or Clarke can fill in. Unfortunately this will never happen while ( i am living off my previous reputation)
Trap is in charge

[ifk101]

The future doesn't necessarily need to be 3 in midfield but we certainly need to be more flexible.

Trapattoni's approach up to now has built on repetition, with the belief that if the players know their roles and what is expected of them, they'll make less mistakes. And this has worked. It got us to the Euros. But it totally failed in the Euros to the extent our players' belief in Trapattoni must be gone. After those 3 defeats, and years of removing any idea of creativity, flexibility, individualism and inventiveness from the minds of our players, does Trapattoni have the will to change and do our players have the will to change under a manager they have known to have one approach, and one approach only?

[geysir]

We need 3 central midfielders to do the work of 2
And we don't need 2 out and out wide midfielders to be on the same team.

In the next WC campaign, we will be the team that other teams target for likely points, home and away.
The Kaz coach will be looking at Ireland's performance at the Euros and think that there's a very good chance that christmas will come early for him.

[Stuttgart88]

The future doesn't necessarily need to be 3 in midfield but we certainly need to be more flexible.

Yes, I'd agree with that even though I've been banging on about 3 in the middle for a while now.

Part of our problem is that Robbi, Doyle, McGeady have been "must picks". This necessitates 2 in midfield. If Duff goes we could play more of a diamond midfield (as some have done in Polkraine) but that requires good full backs.

In an ideal world you just put out 11 good players in more or less natural positions and if they've got the brain and the technique they become a fluent unit. I'm not sure we're near that ideal world though.

I really like the idea (in theory!) of a 3 man midfield flanked by McClean & Coleman, but that means only picking one of Doyle, Long and Walters. Robbie is demoted to talismanic sub from now on. Could Long or Walters play RHM in a 451 / 433?

PS: are people still quite comfy about Sweden?

[ifk101]

Difficult to know with Sweden going forward as there's likely to be a few retirements and their best players in the Euros were all aged 30+. Individually they're no better than the player pool available to us, but they have a swaggger and belief in themselves that we don't seem to have.

[geysir]

I think we can presume they will play a similar game, comfortable with the game they play and how good they play it depends on the quality of the players available.
I'd back them against a team who are not comfortable with the game they play, regardless of some individual superiority.

[Closed Account 2]

I'm still confident we could win at home against the Swedes, we might lose away or we might sneak a draw, but I think we should be able to match them in the two games, and it would be as you were between us and them. I think Austria might cause us more problems than the Swedes as they are a lot more mobile.