Celtic Premier League

[barney]

The problem isn't really our league structure. Its our underage structure. Our underage clubs aren't in the business of developing players. They're in the business of winning game. They enter underage tournaments and bullying foreign teams with physicality. They're delighted they beat a premier league underage club, who weren't even playing for a result in the first place.

Everyone plays for the result.

[Dodge]

Everyone plays for the result.

You couldn't be more wrong at underage level

[barney]

You couldn't be more wrong at underage level

I don't believe that. I've never seen any team play a game against another and not give a sh!te about results. And I've seen quite a lot of underage football.

[Dodge]

I don't believe that. I've never seen any team play a game against another and not give a sh!te about results. And I've seen quite a lot of underage football.

You haven't seen it in other countries because they don't play in leagues until they hit 15/16. Spain, Holland, Italy. you know, the countries that win things

[barney]

You haven't seen it in other countries because they don't play in leagues until they hit 15/16. Spain, Holland, Italy. you know, the countries that win things

That wasn't the point I was making. Yes I agree some countries coach their young players until they hit 15/16. However, the minute that they go into a competitive arena, they want to win. The original post I replied to insinuated that the Spanish and Dutch boys play against our lads competitively and don't care if they win or lose as long as they play 'the right way' while our lads bully their way to victory. That isn't true.

[Stuttgart88]

The £3 billion TV deal with more international £££ to follow is only going to further polarise European football, with the big 4 fighting among themselves for ascendancy and everyone else being marginalised.

UEFA allowing any cross-border league is fraught with all kinds of economic, legal, political and regulatory difficulties.

Even ignoring that, the financial improvement to smaller clubs would be relatively marginal in my opinion. No substantially greater TV money would come in and revenues would be dwarfed by England's. Dodge's point about throwing in our lot with the other Celtic countries is also valid, regardless of how sarcastically it was made.

My personal preference would be for UEFA to take the initiative with regard to the problem of polarised financial status. They could somehow restructure the Europa League along regional lines (NW Europe, Southern Europe, Central Europe, Eastern Europe for example) with generous redistribution playments made across all aprticipants with mandatory solidarity redistribution to domestic league clubs that didn't qualify. National leagues may have to become smaller to accomodate this, but although the concept is fraught with technical and logistical problems I think it is a template that could be developed in order to bring smaller leagues in from the margins without destroying the fabric of national competition.

[Carrigaline]

A Celtic league would be too much too soon. What we need is an all-Ireland league as it's quite clear that there simply isn't enough quality in either Northern Ireland or the Republic to sustain two separate leagues.

[DannyInvincible]

We're at a massive disadvantage because we haven't a league string enough to produce players for the national team. That bit isn't in question. But that problem doesn't exist because of the people involved with the league. it exists because of the people involved in Irish football with no interest in the league.

Look at Croatia or Denmark. Similarly sized countries but always have 4/5 home based players in their squad and practically all their players have started their career in their home leagues. For Ireland to stop relying on British clubs to develop our players (when they can barely develop the required level from English youngsters) we NEED to have a league strong enough to supply 3-5 squad players in every Irish squad. I genuinely think that the likes of McLean, Fahey, Ward, Long, Doyle, Hoolahan and Coleman show that talented players can play here and still move on to the bigger leagues when they're ready. The likes of Keane, Duff etc will always go away early.

But of course I'll be laughed at as a LOI zealot and fans here will still look to the FAI to 'unearth' players like Green and Cox. Meanwhile fans in EVERY other country that qualifies regularly from Europe maintain their professional leagues

Agree with pretty much all of that. Not that I have any personal issue with "granny rule" players in our team - they're more than entitled to play and I support them wholeheartedly just as I support any other Irish player - but the fact we continue to rely almost exclusively on such players (albeit to a much lesser degree since the Charlton era) along with players who've been developed in the UK is indicative of a fundamental problem domestically. As positive a development as it is, having five or six players regularly featuring in our national team now whose roots are in the League of Ireland shouldn't be an exception to celebrate; it should be the norm.

[CraftyToePoke]

As positive a development as it is, having five or six players regularly featuring in our national team now whose roots are in the League of Ireland shouldn't be an exception to celebrate; it should be the norm.

Well, yes you are right, but at least we are now seeing it begin, compared to even a decade ago. And I think it is very much to the credit of L.O.I. that the amount of Irish players who have left it in recent times hasn't seen it diminished massively. Take (at a rough estimate the best 40) players from any countries national league in such a short period and then compare, that is what has happened to L.O.I. of late. But yet again this season there are tales of scouts watching certain guys at various clubs mentioned on other parts of this forum so it looks like it will continue to provide international options, and more of them hopefully also.

What would be nice would be for it to have more respect from the UK club supporting people in Ireland, as someone who has attended L.O.I. since 1987 I can see how once it was not a credible alternative, but it now very much is. The product is there, its decent. It will come though, if you walked around Limerick in my youth you would rarely see the clubs colours on people, now you do. Its coming.

What really doesn't help is the side containing those players getting humiliated in a major finals for the first time.

[DannyInvincible]

In case my comment is open to misinterpretation, I wasn't criticising the league. It's a credit to the league that we now see former league players feature in the international set-up. It's in spite of the lack of national support the league attracts. It is obvious that a poorly-supported and inadequate domestic infrastructure hampers our chances internationally and it has been so for years. But, as you say, better late than never we see some progress on this front. I would like to think that last night's results was a general penny-dropping moment, but that might be a bit too hopeful.

[CraftyToePoke]

I would like to think that last night's results was a general penny-dropping moment, but that might be a bit too hopeful.

It might, it might, we can hope so, or it might well be concluded that what we lacked was more 2 and 3G recruits from the much vaunted neighbouring league. That's the bloody trouble.

[Diarmo]

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

This is interesting, average attendances for European leagues. Good comparison to where we are in relation to the rest of Europe.

Good link.

As much as I yearn for the LoI to have better attendances, I really wonder how much it would help football development.

Look at Scotland. Their attendances are over 10 times what ours are, but their national team and quality of youth player is arguably worse than ours.

Really, what we need is a National Academy tied to the League. Like Clairefontaine or something. A place where young, talented players can train intensively, and still get an education (Basic Leaving Cert or something similar).

[peadar1987]

I'd be in favour of a Celtic Cup competition. If there was a committment to running it for, say, 5 years, and the TV rights were sold, or if necessary, given away to the BBC and RTÉ. I've said it before about an All-Ireland League though, it won't be a panacaea, it would be nothing more than a useful tool to use in promoting the league, and a chance for a few more away days with our clubs in fresh venues.

[the bear]

Good link.

As much as I yearn for the LoI to have better attendances, I really wonder how much it would help football development.

Look at Scotland. Their attendances are over 10 times what ours are, but their national team and quality of youth player is arguably worse than ours.

Really, what we need is a National Academy tied to the League. Like Clairefontaine or something. A place where young, talented players can train intensively, and still get an education (Basic Leaving Cert or something similar).

all the best talent would still end up in england though, the academy would just make the scouts jobs easier. without being able to offer a platform for a decent career its hard to see that changing

[BonnieShels]

Initially yes.
It can easily be tailored so that part of the process involves a period of time back with the loi clubs.
The more kids that get through the system the more will go to England but the more that aren't quite enough stay here. Standards will always improve when it is forced to by an influx.
It can only be a good thing.

My major gripe has been the obsession with pre u15/16 competitive football.
My brother plays u13 from next season. They'll win the league. With hoofball.
Everyone will be delighted. All I see every season is a missed opportunity.

[backstothewall]

all the best talent would still end up in england though, the academy would just make the scouts jobs easier. without being able to offer a platform for a decent career its hard to see that changing

What's the problem with that? If a kid is good enough to go to any of the big leagues, we should be encouraging him. There would be no point opening an academy to hold players back

[the bear]

i dont want to hold anyone back, my point is that they wouldn't be trained in the academy anyway.

bonnies point that with them in england or wherever their places would be taken by players who would otherwise not of received a place is a very good one.

[BonnieShels]

Scarily almost a year to the day of the Spanish Inquisition I made this post...

http://foot.ie/threads/152711-The-ca...tional-Academy

[Kingdom]

We're at a massive disadvantage because we haven't a league string enough to produce players for the national team. That bit isn't in question. But that problem doesn't exist because of the people involved with the league. it exists because of the people involved in Irish football with no interest in the league.

Look at Croatia or Denmark. Similarly sized countries but always have 4/5 home based players in their squad and practically all their players have started their career in their home leagues. For Ireland to stop relying on British clubs to develop our players (when they can barely develop the required level from English youngsters) we NEED to have a league strong enough to supply 3-5 squad players in every Irish squad. I genuinely think that the likes of McLean, Fahey, Ward, Long, Doyle, Hoolahan and Coleman show that talented players can play here and still move on to the bigger leagues when they're ready. The likes of Keane, Duff etc will always go away early.

But of course I'll be laughed at as a LOI zealot and fans here will still look to the FAI to 'unearth' players like Green and Cox. Meanwhile fans in EVERY other country that qualifies regularly from Europe maintain their professional leagues

Great post as always. Educating the kids as they're coming through the leagues would be a big deal I think. Using the current ex LOI Internationals as examples will help in that regard. Fahey is a great example. Really touted as a schoolboy, couldn't hack the pressure, came home, good career, went back when matured properly. Success story.

[Dodge]

Agree with pretty much all of that. Not that I have any personal issue with "granny rule" players in our team - they're more than entitled to play and I support them wholeheartedly just as I support any other Irish player

Just to be clear, I'm not against the rule. People like Kilbane are 100% Irish. What I have a problem with is the FAI trying to persuade guy in their mid 20s to become Irish