Jack charlton, roy keane, euro 2012 (passage of time)

[Stuttgart88]

Those players are coming through despite the system, rather than because of it, imo. I guess we'll never know how many decent players never got the chance at underage level due to their (lack of) size, or how many that were sent over to England at 15 and sent home again disillusioned with football at 17 might have made it by the age of 20 or 21 if they'd stayed at home and kept at it and kept developing.


It'll always be a flawed document anyway, as the FAI don't have the power over their member leagues to implement a proper technical plan. How long would it take for the school boy leagues to disaffiliate if the FAI said there should be no leagues or cups for under 15's for example?

I've no idea! I don't understand how the Irish system on the whole is connected and administered.

Wasn't Genesis 2 supposed to have addressed all that?

I'm aware of the "disconnect" between intermediate and senior football but I had always been under the impression that the bottom tiers of the pyramid were in tact. If not, is there scope for, say, the Irish Sports Council to intervene?

[mark12345]

I don't throw in nonsense on a regular basis. We're all entitled to become impassioned and emotional but you constantly throw in stuff that's open to immediate rebuttal just because of how yoiu say it, whereas I, in all modesty, don't.

I am always open to debate as long as it's sensible and done rationally. I do have firm opinions but I am also flexible.

Of course I'm not happy with that kind of performance. I haven't said I am and your last point was juvenile.

I don't buy into the knee jerk reaction that radical change is required simply because I don't know what our approach really is. There is no transparency around the FAI technical development plan but every now and then a talented young player comes through the system.

A much bigger problem, in my suspicion, is the total economic chasm between our game and the English system and all the negative consequences this has for our game. Also, whilst I had an open mind on Trap and his methods I'm now more convinced that his methods, selections and philosophy are too rigid and are outdated.

What I do think is required is a proper caluculated assessment of where we are right now. If that throws up the conclusion that a change of direction is needed then great. You've got to bear in mind that drastic change is likely to cost money that we don't have.

You make a lot of good and honest points. My problem I guess, is that I tend to look at the Holy Grail and ask why we can't achieve that?

If Spain is the ultimate football team on the planet, then where are we in relation to them? I always ask myself that question. And the answer I come up with, is 'a million miles away' and even further than that after viewing last night's performance.

Then I look at the likes of Cyprus, Turkey, Israel - all countries we would have trounced 15 - 18 years ago. They've developed fantastically while our team has not, and as Liam Brady or Giles suggested on the panel last night, we might even have regressed.

I know the evidence of us qualifying for a major tournament suggests that we are in good shape. But the events of the last ten days, including Hungary, do not bare that out. Nor did our games against Russia in qualifying.

Like you say Stutts a calculated assessment of where we are right now needs to be done. I remember hearing a story about Holland, back in the day, and how they used to get hammered by the likes of Italy and Germany and Portugal. They resolved to put together a coaching system for their kids and the rest is history. France ditto.

We have reached that crossroads perhaps.

This message board is the best around. What I'd love to see is a grass roots petition to the FAI to at least become transparent (like you say) and for people to demand they (the FAI) set themselves some real targets regarding the development of our kids.

I'm also a firm believer that our top youngsters need to start looking away from English football.

[OwlsFan]

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Then I look at the likes of Cyprus, Turkey, Israel - all countries we would have trounced 15 - 18 years ago. They've developed fantastically while our team has not, and as Liam Brady or Giles suggested on the panel last night, we might even have regressed. .

We lost to Turkey in a play off 12 years ago.

Were Cyprus, Turkey or Israel at Euro 2012? Or Belgium, Scotland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Bosnia etc etc.?

Once more we punched above our weight especially with the Premiership now awash with non-Uk/Irish players, the players are not coming though. If you want to look at why we are not as good as we once were, have a look at that. But despite it all we qualified and I won't repeat myself what I said about the games themselves.

If they are to look away from English football, where are they to look?

[bennocelt]

So you are not too dissapointed then and are fully behind Trap for the next campaign?

[Stuttgart88]

You'd swear it was all or nothing.

I think Trap's good at eeking out ugly results against tricky lesser sides, not good at getting big performances out against no. 2 seeds and above.

I do think it's dangerous to over react to a drubbing from Spain. I just picked up my boy from footy class. His coach is Brazilian (how's that for foresight?) and he says he felt Spain would have beaten them 4-0 too. OK, he's looking for next term's fees but...

I think it's hard to tell where we are because the coach doesn't trust his players to play, his selections are odd and unimaginative (Cox in midfield but no Gibson?), his tactics are out of date, we played good teams with key players not 100% and who played well below capability (Dunne, O'Shea and Given) so to say we're in desperate trouble is rash. Other factors disguised proper assessment of where we are.


Our U19s were semi-finalists last year (losing 5-0 to Spain!), our U17s got close. Some here cited Scotland's results against Spain. Scotland just lost 5-1to USA.

[Macy]

I've no idea! I don't understand how the Irish system on the whole is connected and administered.

Wasn't Genesis 2 supposed to have addressed all that?

I'm aware of the "disconnect" between intermediate and senior football but I had always been under the impression that the bottom tiers of the pyramid were in tact. If not, is there scope for, say, the Irish Sports Council to intervene?

There's no pyramid - all elements are disconnected. schoolboy football sees itself feeding English teams academies or their own intermediate team. League of Ireland definitely isn't a focus.

[tricky_colour]

Were we playing a pub side we could (probably) pass them of the park, or you can't male a silk purse out of a sows ear.

[barney]

We lost to Turkey in a play off 12 years ago.

Were Cyprus, Turkey or Israel at Euro 2012? Or Belgium, Scotland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Bosnia etc etc.?

Once more we punched above our weight especially with the Premiership now awash with non-Uk/Irish players, the players are not coming though. If you want to look at why we are not as good as we once were, have a look at that. But despite it all we qualified and I won't repeat myself what I said about the games themselves.

If they are to look away from English football, where are they to look?

You're one of the more rational posters on here and make some good points especially about the countries not at Euro 2012. That said, we shouldn't be just benchmarking ourselves against those sides or the top sides. What it comes down to is:

1. Are we happy with our performance and do we think it was as good as it could be? I don't think anyone could honestly answer yes to that.
2. Were there extenuating circumstances? Yes, there were some injuries but, even allowing for that, I don't believe that Spain or Croatia are as far ahead of us as we made them look.
3. Did the whole team, or most of them, underperform? If one or two players underperform, then you look at those players. If 6,7,8+ players underperform, you have to look at the manager. I would challenge anyone to argue that we didn't have that many players below their best.

Therefore, Trap is culpable. He is a great manager, a legend of the game, who did well to get us qualified (some luck notwithstanding) but he is primarily responsible in my book for a very, very disappointing showing at these championships.

I agree with you re the England thing but it goes deeper than football and is a cultural problem. How many 15-18 year olds speak another language like German, Dutch, Italian, French or Spanish and are talented footballers. Very few I'd bet. It would be so difficult at that age to go to a foreign country, on your own, where you don't speak the lingo and you're going into a different culture. We, as a country, aren't good at that. If a foreigner doesn't understand us in their country, our solution is usually to speak slower and louder.

Football wise, our culture (and England's) and mentality is not good which I've mentioned in another post.

[mark12345]

We beat England, we drew with the Soviet Union and were only beaten by a poxy goal from the eventual champions eight minutes from time. We surpassed every expectation of us in that tournament.

You're missing the point completely. We had great success, agreed. But it was because we put other teams under pressure. The passing movements were half decent at times, but most chances we created was through the long ball game.

I want to see our lads keep the ball for minutes at a time, just like Spain. I know its pie in the sky right now. But let;s at least start to think that way as a team.

[barney]

You're missing the point completely. We had great success, agreed. But it was because we put other teams under pressure. The passing movements were half decent at times, but most chances we created was through the long ball game.

I want to see our lads keep the ball for minutes at a time, just like Spain. I know its pie in the sky right now. But let;s at least start to think that way as a team.

I know what you're getting at but IMO you cannot compare Euro 88 with this mess.

[mark12345]

We lost to Turkey in a play off 12 years ago.

Yeah, and a few years before that we hammered them 5-0 at Lansdowne Road. Looks like they improved immensely during this time wouldn't you say? And since then they went on to finish third in the world at the World Cup. We can't really boast that sort of improvement can we?

None of Cyrpus, Turkey or Israel were at Euro 2012. So what is your point?

Do you or do you not agree with my orignial point that these countries have improved immensely?

And if you do agree, then we must ask ourselves why we're not improving in stride with them.

[CraftyToePoke]

I want to see our lads keep the ball for minutes at a time, just like Spain.

Or in the meantime, how about emulating Denmark even, who's midfield so far has contained a VFB Stuttgart and an Ajax player granted - (how vital these guys are for those clubs I am not sure), but also, a Club Bruges, a Brondby, an FC Nijmegen and an FC Midtjylland one against Portugal the other night, where they played their way back from 2-0 down and although they lost 3-2, were I thought admirable throughout, a pleasure to watch, effective, clever economic use of the ball in the middle third.

[Stuttgart88]

The modern game with no back passes and no lunge tackles (ex-UK) emphasises skill and technique. Long ball and up and at 'em is redundant, by and large. Of course big no. 's still have a role but the game is about touch and movement and the best teams do this quicker than others. Another feature is that the good teams snap at ankles and win the ball back. We stand off it too much. Our shape is a relic of another era. We were simply out of date.

[OwlsFan]

You're one of the more rational posters on here and make some good points especially about the countries not at Euro 2012. That said, we shouldn't be just benchmarking ourselves against those sides or the top sides. What it comes down to is:

1. Are we happy with our performance and do we think it was as good as it could be? I don't think anyone could honestly answer yes to that.
2. Were there extenuating circumstances? Yes, there were some injuries but, even allowing for that, I don't believe that Spain or Croatia are as far ahead of us as we made them look.
3. Did the whole team, or most of them, underperform? If one or two players underperform, then you look at those players. If 6,7,8+ players underperform, you have to look at the manager. I would challenge anyone to argue that we didn't have that many players below their best.

Therefore, Trap is culpable. He is a great manager, a legend of the game, who did well to get us qualified (some luck notwithstanding) but he is primarily responsible in my book for a very, very disappointing showing at these championships.

I agree with you re the England thing but it goes deeper than football and is a cultural problem. How many 15-18 year olds speak another language like German, Dutch, Italian, French or Spanish and are talented footballers. Very few I'd bet. It would be so difficult at that age to go to a foreign country, on your own, where you don't speak the lingo and you're going into a different culture. We, as a country, aren't good at that. If a foreigner doesn't understand us in their country, our solution is usually to speak slower and louder.

Football wise, our culture (and England's) and mentality is not good which I've mentioned in another post.

To answer your points:

1. The performances have not been good but the one against Croatia was actually better than in the 0-0 at Lansdowne. We got no breaks in the game, fouhgt back to 1-1 and then conceded a goal that should not have stood before half time. Shay then heads in the third. I think the scoreline didn't flatter us. It's hard to know what to say about the Spanish game. If we got something from the first game, the result may have been overlooked more than it was because 95% of people were talking about the first and last game and putting the middle one down as a loss. Again the early goal killed us (once more given away by us trying to play football in our own half). First half wasn't a total disaster, second half was despite Kenny Cunningham exclsuively showing clips from the second half about how we should play and press the ball, ignoring the fact that we conceded three in that half! Anyway, to answer your question, results very bad, performances not too bad the first game but disappointing in the second but not a total surprise.
2. The extenuating circumstances were the early goals in both games and that all 3 Croat goals with a pinch of luck could have been avoided. THat said, it is our own fault that we gave the ball away in our own half for both opening goals and that is the team's fault and arguably the manager for not really getting them out of the starting blocks or telling them not to fanny around (i.e. try to play football) in our own half for the first 15 minutes until we setlle in to the game.
3. Yes, most of the team has underperformed but I do put a lot down to that second Croat goal. Psychologically it was a killer. We had been doing ok up to that (nothing special but matching the Croats) but the timing and especially the nature of the goal was like a knife through the team's collective heart. The team was in a downward spiral since then. This "we were robbed" is deep in the Irish psyche (with good reason) and collectively I believe in their hearts they thought we're finish. The early goal against Spain just finished us off.

As for Trap himself, he irritates the hell out of me with his selections and makes a rod for his own back with some of them. I have an Italian friend who said that this is what he does. The trouble is if he picked Coleman and McLean on either flank as many wished he had before the tournament, this would not have stopped us conceding early goals or changed history. We should play a different style is the mantra of many. I saw us trying it and 85% of the time we got no further than passing back to Given (if we weren't conceding possession and ending up in them scoring). Different midfielders perhaps. Wes Hoolahan comes to mind and I think he would have been the ideal 5th midfielder for the game against Spain. We would still have conceded the early goal though. Trap got us to the Finals and almost got us to the previous one. Whether Paul Jewell (the forgotton choice of Dunphy/Giles) would have I very much doubt. He is doing something right with the 2 campaign unbeaten away run and I am not sure there is anyone who could do much better but he needs to do something fast to win back the public, whose support was tenuous even before Finals.

[mark12345]

The modern game with no back passes and no lunge tackles (ex-UK) emphasises skill and technique. Long ball and up and at 'em is redundant, by and large. Of course big no. 's still have a role but the game is about touch and movement and the best teams do this quicker than others. Another feature is that the good teams snap at ankles and win the ball back. We stand off it too much. Our shape is a relic of another era. We were simply out of date.

All very relevant and very good points. You can see it, I can see it and I suspect most people on here can see it. Can the Irish management take on board these type of comments and resolve to change the style of the team? Let's hope so.

[ShamrockIreland]

All very relevant and very good points. You can see it, I can see it and I suspect most people on here can see it. Can the Irish management take on board these type of comments and resolve to change the style of the team? Let's hope so.

Not a chance his fabled SYSTEM will not be on the go come the World Cup qualifiers.We could lose half the first team and probably be better at this stage. Whelans inability to pass or defend has to be addressed. We can all talk all we want here but Delaney and Trap will have to go if the same old squad and style of play is in evidence again come September. I cannot believe how many of you here fell hook line and sinker for Traps silver tongue. We needed to build for the future but all we have is McShane and Green in our squad. I'd rip it up and start again the first thing getting rid of Trap he's never going to change.

[third policeman]

Not a chance his fabled SYSTEM will not be on the go come the World Cup qualifiers.We could lose half the first team and probably be better at this stage. Whelans inability to pass or defend has to be addressed. We can all talk all we want here but Delaney and Trap will have to go if the same old squad and style of play is in evidence again come September. I cannot believe how many of you here fell hook line and sinker for Traps silver tongue. We needed to build for the future but all we have is McShane and Green in our squad. I'd rip it up and start again the first thing getting rid of Trap he's never going to change.

Spot on Shamrock. I was more depressed by Delaney's ongoing confidence in Trapp than I was by the Spain result. The defeat was predictable and the performance entirely as expected, but the prospect of enduring another Trapp campaign can only give comfort to masochists and the deluded.

[OwlsFan]

Ok, so the target for any new manager is not only to qualify for the finals but to do so with attractive football and then when to get to the Finals to also do well at the Finals and against the world champions and No. 8 in the world otherwise he is a failure? Any thoughts on who this person may be ?

[shakermaker1982]

Well you might as well aim high!

I just want common sense football. If your going to hit long aimless balls to your front two then you don't play Robbie Keane.

I want a manager to pick players on form.

I want a manager who will realise that 4-4-2 is outdated in the international arena.

We've got 18 months left of the Trap & then it's time to build for 2018, 2020 & 2022.

[Stuttgart88]

C'mon Owlie, you speak as if eveything's an absolute. We were also pish poor against Hungary, Slovakia at home, Czechs, Norway and quite a few others. We stand off teams and use the ball badly when we have it. Full backs aren't allowed forward.

Now, I'm not saying I know the answers but I think the dogs on the street can see that our rigid 442 has had its day in European football and I don't believe Trap is prepared to make adjustments. I hope I'm wrong. Trap is definitely due some criticism, as are the players who played crap.