Euro 2012 General Discussion

**osarusan** · 09/06/2012, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I think they have a right to feel aggrieved coming out of that with just a point. The referee had a complete brainfart for about ten minutes before half-time, during which he sent off Papastathopoulos for very little and denied the Greeks a penalty after a blatant hand-ball by the grounded Polish defender inside the box.

Sending off was debatable - I wasn't surprised to see him go, and if he hadn't already been on a yellow, he might have got a straight red.

I definitely didn't think it was a penalty - no intent and his arm wasn't in an unnatural position.

**geysir** · 09/06/2012, 9:12 AM

It was no Lee Carsley stonewaller hand ball.

**Charlie Darwin** · 09/06/2012, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by osarusan

Sending off was debatable - I wasn't surprised to see him go, and if he hadn't already been on a yellow, he might have got a straight red.

It wasn't a foul. The Polish player slipped and fell into him.

**DannyInvincible** · 09/06/2012, 9:47 AM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

Very good Danny, agree with all that. Just to add I thought in fact that Salpingidis was the player of the day, the way he totally changed that game was amazing. I do think a draw though was probably the fairest result.
Russia were great but as Beglin said on ITV, can they do the dirty work? Also seeing the Mexican wave was annoying - what kind of vanker does that during a game - im totally engrossed in a match no time with that messing!!!!

Ten minutes longer and there'd have been paper planes.

Originally Posted by osarusan

Sending off was debatable - I wasn't surprised to see him go, and if he hadn't already been on a yellow, he might have got a straight red.

Only because the referee somehow perceived the situation incorrectly.

I definitely didn't think it was a penalty - no intent and his arm wasn't in an unnatural position.

What's an "unnatural position"? He certainly didn't handle deliberately - very few punished hand-balls are deliberate - but he moved an outstretched arm towards the ball. That's an offence, in my book.

**Charlie Darwin** · 09/06/2012, 9:52 AM

Was it not his supporting arm the ball hit?

**DannyInvincible** · 09/06/2012, 10:00 AM

Both arms were supporting after he knocked the ball towards his left:

**smurfty** · 09/06/2012, 10:24 AM

Russia v Czech Republic was a great game to watch. If this standard keeps up it should be a great tournament.

**geysir** · 09/06/2012, 11:14 AM

I didn't see any deliberate movement from his hand to the ball. The ref did enough to bring the game into disrepute but the decision not to award a penalty there, shouldn't be held against him.
I thought Howard Webb did well in the later game, it's rare to find a ref at this type of competition who refs a game in the way he did.

**sullanefc** · 09/06/2012, 11:15 AM

No pen for me. The greek who got sent off should not have gotten the first yellow, but I can see how the ref gave the second yellow. I know the guy was slipping anyway, but the defender still put his arms across to block his path and further helped him to the ground. He probably wouldn't have had a clear goal scoring opportunity, but it was cynical by the defender and a yellow was probably correct. As I said, the mistake was the first yellow.

**bennocelt** · 09/06/2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It wasn't a foul. The Polish player slipped and fell into him.

Yeah but the goalie did bring him down. I think it was a peno. As regards the non - peno - I think that was one as well - thought that in real time too. But in a funny way it was good for Greece they didnt get it - it sure fired them up for the second half

**DannyInvincible** · 09/06/2012, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by geysir

I didn't see any deliberate movement from his hand to the ball.

What do you deem "deliberate"? I'd deem "deliberate" to mean an intent to handle the ball. Luis Saurez versus Ghana in the 2010 World Cup was deliberate, but plenty of penalties are awarded without deliberate movements of the arm towards the ball.

**geysir** · 09/06/2012, 12:20 PM

An intent to handle the ball is not enough on its own with out the contact

I suppose deliberate is a movement by the hand towards the ball and making contact, like Lee Carsley on the ground v Turkey. Is it not up to ref to decide if the hand movement is deliberate? There are plenty of grey areas, like a player leaving his hand outstretched. In the game last night the player fell to ground and the ball touched his hand, it's unlikely the player intended the fall and unlikely he intended to handle the ball, therefore it was up to the ref and the alert assistant behind the line to make a split decision and I'd agree with their decision.

**DannyInvincible** · 09/06/2012, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

An intent to handle the ball is not enough on its own with out the contact

I am aware of mens rea and actus reus.

I suppose deliberate is a movement by the hand towards the ball and making contact, like Lee Carsley on the ground v Turkey. Is it not up to ref to decide if the hand movement is deliberate? There are plenty of grey areas, like a player leaving his hand outstretched. In the game last night the player fell to ground and the ball touched his hand, it's unlikely the player intended the fall and unlikely he intended to handle the ball, therefore it was up to the ref and the alert assistant behind the line to make a split decision and I'd agree with their decision.

The player did intend the fall though, in that he deliberately got himself into such a position whereby he would require a supporting left hand as he fell to the ground in order to block the ball. If penalties were given only for incidents where the ball is handled strictly intentionally (like the Luis Saurez example), very few would be awarded at all.

**geysir** · 09/06/2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The player did intend the fall though, in that he deliberately got himself into such a position whereby he would require a supporting left hand as he fell to the ground in order to block the ball.

You are mind reading, I thought only POS could do that

The player intended to block the ball. The rest is just consequences after his botched attempt to do so, not deemed to be deliberate by the ref and I'd agree.
Your argument is akin to stating that a player was intentionally standing in the box, the ball hit his hand, therefore the player had deliberately got himself into that position by intentionally being in the exact location whereby his hand hit the ball.

**Crosby87** · 09/06/2012, 1:21 PM

Danny Invincible has always gone Greek.

**paul_oshea** · 09/06/2012, 2:27 PM

our countries got no money...but we've got robbie keane

**Noelys Guitar** · 09/06/2012, 3:09 PM

It was good to see Russia winning fairly easily against the Czechs. If Ireland was a racehorse we would be favourites for tomorrows game. I thought Russia moved the ball exactly the way the moved it against us in both games. If Arshavin didn't overrun the ball so much they would be an even more dangerous team. Just feel they will concede too many goals to win the Euros outright.

**geysir** · 09/06/2012, 4:12 PM

2 games a day is doable, 3 would be stretching it on all levels.
16 team format is just perfect, shame they want to fix something that is far from being broken.

A couple of 'decent' games on today, should complete the launch of Euro 2012.
A Germany v Netherlands finals fixture rarely lets you down.