How the rest of the world see us....

[Bungle]

Is it? Were your ancestors sectarian?



Which one would that be and how do you distinguish between the activities of the "modern" and the "old" of which your ancestors were members?



Whilst this is true, and it might be unsavoury for many, is it strictly indicative of sectarianism?

The old IRA fought British soldiers. They did what they had to do against the likes of the Black and Tans and in some cases it was gruesome. However, there was a campaign of hate against the Irish people and the IRA stood up to them through the use of guerilla warfare to defeat them.

I have a huge degree of sympathy for how northern Irish catholics/nationalists were treated after partition and I can totally understand how thousands of young men in the ghettos of Derry and Belfast would end up in the IRA of the late 60s/70s/80s. However, it still doesn't take away from the fact that countless atrocities were carried out against Protestants up North in this period against the innocent. Often, the IRA indiscriminately bombed such as in Omagh where many Catholics were killed. I cannot bring myself to sing and glorify about these scumbags.

When I lived in Guildford, I just missed the bombing by hours. The pub was a known military pub, but alot of Irish navvies like myself and Irish nurses would often be in there. I could so easily have as well. They didn't give to much of a toss though did they. Anyone who is old enough to remember what it was like to live in mainland Britain after the bombings will tell you what it was like. You found yourself trying to justify what the IRA did in the context of what the British had done to us for centuries, while at the same time feeling shame for the loss of innocent men, women and children. Try tell that to the bombers who had probably fled back to their safe houses in the South of Ireland, while you and your mates were being interned for hours and questioned about being part of the IRA.

From my experience, the modern IRA are drug dealers and involved in other criminal activity. They are so far removed from the IRA of the past, it is not even funny.

It is true that very very few of our fans sung and glorify about the IRA and long may this continue. We have the best fans in the world and this is why the Poles want to play us in a friendly.

[Not Brazil]

In what way is saying "f**k the Queen" a sectarian act?

In what way is saying "f**k the Pope" a sectarian act?

[Stuttgart88]

Can we not just drop this nonsense? So we have a few morons in our support? A bunch of lads behaving offensvely on youtube isn't representative of anything, much as NB would like it to be.

[boovidge]

It's not, necessarily.

[Wolfie]

yep, all three were top seeds in qualifying, and we were the only 3rd seed to qualify
Second seeds that didn't qualify were Switzerland, Serbia, Turkey, Slovakia and Romania.

all here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Eu...fying#Seedings

To be fair, thats a revealing stat.

Only 3rd team to qualify.

Am I experiencing the first green shoots of acceptance and moving on to the next tournament with renewed delusion / optimism ??????

[Not Brazil]

A bunch of lads behaving offensvely on youtube isn't representative of anything, much as NB would like it to be.

It is representative of the fact that you have a small minority of "lads" amongst the South's support, mainly from Northern Ireland, who like to indulge in bigoted, sectarian, chanting.

The majority of your fans are top quality.

[paul_oshea]

In what way is saying "f**k the Pope" a sectarian act?

Did the pope ever rule northern ireland or the republic of ireland?

Its completely different NB, i agree with the FOA, but this is nothing else other than a few goons.

Its like the immature peado one about wegner, it is NOT sectarian.

[Not Brazil]

Did the pope ever rule northern ireland or the republic of ireland?

Of course not - why do you ask?

Do you consider chanting "f**k the Pope" to be sectarian?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Er, do you?

[paul_oshea]

Of course not - why do you ask?

Do you consider chanting "f**k the Pope" to be sectarian?

You are taking it as being the Queen as the head of the Church of England, and the Pope being the head of the Catholic Church. It shows how unimaginative those are that felt the need to invent something like F the Pope in retalliation to F the Queen the head of the Armed Forces and Occupied Terrirtory.

Do you understand now? It is not like for like because F the Queen represents all that enveloped and repressed the Irish people.

The pope did no such thing to the good folk of NI or ROI or the Island of Ireland.

Its like comparing apples and Oranges....oh wait.

If you do understand, then your attempt at playing the sectarian card, is laughable in the extreme, not even worth considering.

[Not Brazil]

You are taking it as being the Queen as the head of the Church of England, and the Pope being the head of the Catholic Church. It shows how unimaginative those are that felt the need to invent something like F the Pope in retalliation to F the Queen the head of the Armed Forces and Occupied Terrirtory.

Do you understand now? It is not like for like because F the Queen represents all that enveloped and repressed the Irish people.

The pope did no such thing to the good folk of NI or ROI or the Island of Ireland.

Its like comparing apples and Oranges....oh wait.

If you do understand, then your attempt at playing the sectarian card, is laughable in the extreme, not even worth considering.

So, basically, you're saying that chanting things like "f**k the Pope and the IRA" is not sectarian?

"Occupied Territory"

[DannyInvincible]

Of course not - why do you ask?

Do you consider chanting "f**k the Pope" to be sectarian?

It depends on the intent behind it, no? On the face of it, it appears to be a expression of anti-Catholicism and is often used by unionist/loyalists/Protestants in possession of some bitter grudge against Catholics in order to insult the latter, so I would imagine it probably is in many/most cases.

I have a Protestant uncle through marriage who, with a bit of drink in him at family gatherings, has pointed his finger across the table at my mother and accused "you Papists" (yes, he did use the word "Papists"!) of being complicit in the abuses of the Catholic Church, as if my mother had covered up child abuse or something. That's also sectarianism in my book.

The old IRA fought British soldiers. They did what they had to do against the likes of the Black and Tans and in some cases it was gruesome. However, there was a campaign of hate against the Irish people and the IRA stood up to them through the use of guerilla warfare to defeat them.

Did what they had to, so were right? But those from nationalist communities who joined the IRA feeling threatened and alienated within what was a Protestant state for a Protestant people were indulging in struggle for luxury? Some moral simplification/historical revisionism there. At what point does something become the justified and necessary absolute last resort?

The Irish state indulges in similar revisionism and double standards on this to a nauseous degree every Easter and Ryan Tubridy's laughing off of the matter with an "ah, c'mon!" when Martin McGuinness once raised it with him on the Late Late Show - given Tubridy's grandfather(?) was in the IRA - was typical of this southern revisionism. Another relative of mine wrote this a month or so ago:

Probably the first person to be shot dead in the Easter Rising was a fourteen-year-old called Gerald Playfair. He was the son of the commander of the Magazine Fort in the Phoenix Park. He was running to alert the authorities that the fort had been seized when a pursuing Volunteer shot him dead. And the Irish Times on Monday carried an article about a historical dispute going on at present about whether in Cork in 1922, the shooting dead in 1922 of 13 people all Protestant, aged between 16 and 82 years, was motivated by sectarianism.

They're just two examples of what might be construed as "old IRA foul-play", but all violent struggles become tainted or dirty to a degree by their nature. The pre-southern independence one is no exception. Not everything they did was what you might consider "above board". In fact, the volunteers of the Easter Rising were mocked and jeered through the streets of Dublin upon their arrest. The Dublin media even berated them in holding them responsible for the mass destruction of the grand local architecture of the day. There was no widespread public support for violent revolt pre-1916. Just as the modern IRA have no claim to a democratic mandate, neither did the IRA of old.

I have a huge degree of sympathy for how northern Irish catholics/nationalists were treated after partition and I can totally understand how thousands of young men in the ghettos of Derry and Belfast would end up in the IRA of the late 60s/70s/80s. However, it still doesn't take away from the fact that countless atrocities were carried out against Protestants up North in this period against the innocent. Often, the IRA indiscriminately bombed such as in Omagh where many Catholics were killed. I cannot bring myself to sing and glorify about these scumbags.

Nobody's saying something like what happened in Omagh should be glorified. That was a disgraceful, tragic and clumsy mess of the highest order, but I'm not sure it can be painted as sectarian or that the IRA's general campaign can be understood as such (I acknowledge splinter groups and volunteers within the IRA may have deviated from the "official line" on this from time to time, but the IRA's command were always very clear that their struggle was political rather than sectarian). A memory that has stuck with me to this day is of first hearing the news of Omagh. I was on holidays in the US with my family as a boy and my father, who grew up outside Omagh, woke us up in a state of panic to tell us the news after getting a phone-call from home. I was too young to fully comprehend the magnitude of what had just happened but I could sense my father was visibly upset as live footage of what was unfolding in the aftermath started filtering through via the American news channels on the television. Or maybe what did that to him was the anchor interviewing, of all people, Bono!

In seriousness though and more to the point, the main problem I have is with this idea that it's all terribly easy to make a moral distinction between the "old" and "modern" versions of the IRA. That's not to say that either everything one or the other did was all right or all wrong respectively either; just a wish for some to acknowledge moral ambiguities instead of avoiding facing up to some hard truths.

[paul_oshea]

So, basically, you're saying that chanting things like "f**k the Pope and the IRA" is not sectarian?

"Occupied Territory"

Occupied Territory isn't NI, before you go off thinking it is. It could be IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, SYRIA, wherever But seriously i meant it in terms of the State of Eire.

One last time NB. The Pope is not a head of armed forces that ever occupied the territory of Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'd say you genuinely taught him something there, Paul...

[Not Brazil]

One last time NB. The Pope is not a head of armed forces that ever occupied the territory of Ireland.

Is chanting "f**k the Pope" sectarian, or not?

Is chanting in support of the UVF sectarian, or not?

Yes or no will do.

[BonnieShels]

That's an "n" at the end of queen, not an "r".

Edit: Looking forward to giving you boys a hammering tonight when "what's it like to have a queer queen" will get an airing I'm sure.

Ah sullane, You need a crash course in Homosexual nomenclature 101.

Agree with your post. But as you say, mountain out of a molehill. Nothing to see here folks. nothing at all...

[sullanefc]

Some great posts above on politics and the history of the situation from different points of view. I agree with many of them. I didn't want to get in to it for fear of getting the thread closed for talking politics in a football forum.

I don't think its sectarian for having a political opinion on the history of our Country and I'm pretty sure that while the guys in the youtube clip are drunk and being immature, they are not sectarian.

You know if we were all discussing this in a bar with NB in our company, there would come a point where we would say, ah fe*k the politics and we would start talking football. I would ask NB how do Linfield keep winning the league almost every year? Is he as disappointed in IL attendances as we are of LOI attendances? Is he dismayed at the number of people who go across the water for matches with football on their doorsteps? We might tell dirty jokes, ogle the hot bird in the corner, drink beer, smoke cigs and head off to a club for more.

We all have our political views, but the majority are reasonable people who treat everyone, no matter where they're from or their religion, with respect. I don't think that is sectarian. No matter how much I dislike the queen or wish for someone to have sexual intercourse with her as NB put it.

[geysir]

But as you say, mountain out of a molehill. Nothing to see here folks. nothing at all...

A molehill suggests something you can visibly observe without the aid of a magnifying glass.

A majority of fans - eh, sorry, let's try that again - the vast majority, no that's doesn't quite explain it either, how about - 99.999% of fans behave themselves for what passes within the confines of public decency at a major sporting event.

A small minority, sorry, lets try that again, a miniscule nr of fans, so small as to be almost invisible, some .0001% behave themselves with indignity.

[bennocelt]

I have some English friends that wouldnt be great fans of the queen. Are they self haters? Is it any wonder that some nationalists dont want to play for NI

[Not Brazil]

It depends on the intent behind it, no? On the face of it, it appears to be a expression of anti-Catholicism and is often used by unionist/loyalists/Protestants in possession of some bitter grudge against Catholics in order to insult the latter, so I would imagine it probably is in many/most cases.

I have a Protestant uncle through marriage who, with a bit of drink in him at family gatherings, has pointed his finger across the table at my mother and accused "you Papists" (yes, he did use the word "Papists"!) of being complicit in the abuses of the Catholic Church, as if my mother had covered up child abuse or something. That's also sectarianism in my book.

In my experience, most of those who would chant "f**k the Pope" would not have the first notion as to what aspects of Catholicism they have theological issues with - basically because they would not be religious per se.

I don't, therefore, understand what their "grudge" would be on theological grounds.