APOEL Nicosia - An example for LOI teams to follow?

[gormacha]

"Looking at the Nicosia line-up last night, it looks like all but 2 of the starting 11 were actually Cypriots."

According to their wiki page, eleven of their twenty-seven man squad are from Cyprus. I looked back at the team that lined up in the last CL group game, and three of these eleven started. Of the other eight of the starting eleven, five were Brazilian and three were Portugeuse. It does suggest a purchasing power beyond Irish clubs.

APOEL also effectively represent Greek Cypriots (the acronym stands for "Athletic Football Club of Greeks of Nicosia") and even the most cursory knowledge of their history suggests they can then draw on supporter identity in a way that no LoI club can.

There's no doubt they are punching above their weight, but I don't think its likely that any other Cypriot club will emulate their achievement, nor do I expect them to reproduce it regularly. It's hard to see them as a model for LoI clubs to follow. I'm open to correction as I have a fairly slight knowledge of them, but at first glance...

[mypost]

"Looking at the Nicosia line-up last night, it looks like all but 2 of the starting 11 were actually Cypriots."

According to their wiki page, eleven of their twenty-seven man squad are from Cyprus. I looked back at the team that lined up in the last CL group game, and three of these eleven started. Of the other eight of the starting eleven, five were Brazilian and three were Portugeuse. It does suggest a purchasing power beyond Irish clubs.

It doesn't matter how their purchasing power compares to LOI clubs, more their purchasing power compared to their European rivals, which is very low. They have shown in this and other seasons, that cash is not everything in football. Football is still won and lost on the pitch, not in the boardroom.

[gormacha]

It doesn't matter how their purchasing power compares to LOI clubs, more their purchasing power compared to their European rivals, which is very low. They have shown in this and other seasons, that cash is not everything in football. Football is still won and lost on the pitch, not in the boardroom.

I wish what you said was true, but it isn't. In every league around the world, the richest clubs are the most successful. And when leagues compete against each other, the richer clubs win. This is so obviously the case I'm amazed anyone thinks otherwise. I don't like it, but its true.

Of course you'll be able to cite examples of clubs that occasionally buck this. APOEL, for example, have done very well, and as I said, they are punching above their weight. But it won't last long, because it never does anymore. TV screwed everything.

[mypost]

Cash helps of course, but if it's not spent wisely, it'll get you nowhere. You need to get the right coaches, the right players, the right backroom staff, etc. You have to keep confidence and morale high, which isn't always easy. There are plenty of clubs who have money, but can't deliver the goods on the pitch over 90 minutes.

[Spudulika]

Mypost - good point on the lax regime etc, glad someone noticed it :-)

Rosenborg were never going to be the model to follow. Neither are any of the Cypriot clubs - it costs too much and there isn't the audience. Cyprus traditionally take their lead from Turkey or Greece, and their fans follow either league (like in Malta with England and Italy being the 2 camps). For Irish clubs we have to look further afield to see what can be done on lesser resources.

Mika and BATE, two clubs who set up their youth systems, got their facilities right and while the Armenians have had to sell to re-invest, BATE have come a long way (as some Bohs fans who were there can testify to) being a shambles of a team. They are a model to follow, a nice club and have re-invested their european windfalls into developing players better. Clubs in Ireland generally don't have the youth structures or patience to develop.

[peadar1987]

Mypost - good point on the lax regime etc, glad someone noticed it :-)

Rosenborg were never going to be the model to follow. Neither are any of the Cypriot clubs - it costs too much and there isn't the audience. Cyprus traditionally take their lead from Turkey or Greece, and their fans follow either league (like in Malta with England and Italy being the 2 camps). For Irish clubs we have to look further afield to see what can be done on lesser resources.

Mika and BATE, two clubs who set up their youth systems, got their facilities right and while the Armenians have had to sell to re-invest, BATE have come a long way (as some Bohs fans who were there can testify to) being a shambles of a team. They are a model to follow, a nice club and have re-invested their european windfalls into developing players better. Clubs in Ireland generally don't have the youth structures or patience to develop.

I don't think it's really about patience, more about the fact that any Irish club who drop out of the arms race of unsustainable wages to invest in anything longer term than the end of the season will have their players poached, and be left behind for at least 5 years, until their investments start to bear fruit. That could be immensely damaging to an already fragile fanbase.

[gormacha]

I don't think it's really about patience, more about the fact that any Irish club who drop out of the arms race of unsustainable wages to invest in anything longer term than the end of the season will have their players poached, and be left behind for at least 5 years, until their investments start to bear fruit. That could be immensely damaging to an already fragile fanbase.

That's a good point, but it doesn't fully explain the shameful reluctance of many clubs to have a proper underage setup.

[Spudulika]

Peadar, Gormacha has a point (as do you) and it all boils down to this. Do you go and plough money into getting players in to "do something" in the league or do you take a longer term view of developing your players. If you lose them, you'll get compensation (BATE and MIKA go through this annually) however the most important thing is to ensure that you have players coming through to replace them. So many clubs are lazy, short sighted and cannot get past that fact that 4-5 years of poor results but trusting in the future of a well run youth set up will bring rewards. How many clubs would consider a 10 year plan? Very, very few because they want success now and the managers feed into this. Until the investment is made, by clubs, into developing really well run and efficient youth structures (to stop kids drifting to other sports especially) then it's the same old story.

[peadar1987]

Peadar, Gormacha has a point (as do you) and it all boils down to this. Do you go and plough money into getting players in to "do something" in the league or do you take a longer term view of developing your players. If you lose them, you'll get compensation (BATE and MIKA go through this annually) however the most important thing is to ensure that you have players coming through to replace them. So many clubs are lazy, short sighted and cannot get past that fact that 4-5 years of poor results but trusting in the future of a well run youth set up will bring rewards. How many clubs would consider a 10 year plan? Very, very few because they want success now and the managers feed into this. Until the investment is made, by clubs, into developing really well run and efficient youth structures (to stop kids drifting to other sports especially) then it's the same old story.

I agree, and it's always been my position that there needs to be strong leadership from the FAI to stop clubs sinking all their budgets into crazy wages, allowing them to implement structures for the future, as well as remain competitive domestically. It wouldn't be popular, but sure could the FAI be any less popular than they already are?!

[El-Pietro]

I think a big problem is that clubs aren't compensated enough for players we lose to clubs abroad.

In my time following City have lost the following players that were developed in house off the top of my head - there may be some I'm missing:
1999: Brian Barry-Murphy - Preston North End
2000: Damien Delaney -Leicester City
2000: Joe Gamble - Reading
2001: Leon McSweeney - Leicester City
2005: Shane Long - Reading
2007: Alan Bennett - Reading
2009: Kevin Long - Burnley

with the exception of Alan Bennett we didn't make too much from those transfers.

[Spudulika]

El-p, this can tie into what Peadar said, and something that was discussed on another thread. If the FAI were to centralise contracts and pool funds (it was suggested by your old boss Rico) in the style of the MLS, it would give Irish players, clubs and the FAI a much better bargaining chip. It makes sense, which means that a) clubs won't go for it, b) the FAI won't go for it and c) agents will make sure it won't happen.

What about Meyler? Did ye get cash for him?

[El-Pietro]

ah yeah forgot Meyler, got about 200k for him, which was reasonable - on the flip side we got 250k for Dave Mooney - we were ripped off there

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

What about Kevin Doyle and Roy O'Donovan?

[DaveyCakes]

APOEL Nicosia are this season's BATE Borisov

[El-Pietro]

What about Kevin Doyle and Roy O'Donovan?

we signed Kevin from St. Pats and Roy returned home from Coventry - same with Denis Behan (Northampton) John O'Flynn (Peterbrough) and others - its hard to claim that we developed them

[nigel-harps1954]

Meh, I'd say the opposite, it's much easier to claim you developed them. Much alike if Stephen McLaughlin goes over to England I'll say he learned everything he knows at Harps.

[El-Pietro]

I think a big problem is that clubs aren't compensated enough for players we lose to clubs abroad.

In my time following City have lost the following players that were developed in house off the top of my head - there may be some I'm missing:
1999: Brian Barry-Murphy - Preston North End
2000: Damien Delaney -Leicester City
2000: Joe Gamble - Reading
2001: Leon McSweeney - Leicester City
2005: Shane Long - Reading
2007: Alan Bennett - Reading
2009: Kevin Long - Burnley

with the exception of Alan Bennett we didn't make too much from those transfers.

of course in that time frame many young players made the step up into the first team but never went cross channel
Mark McNulty, Neal Horgan, Kalen Spillane, Kevin Murray, Greg O'Halloran, Cillian Lordan and probably lots more in that time frame

[El-Pietro]

Meh, I'd say the opposite, it's much easier to claim you developed them. Much alike if Stephen McLaughlin goes over to England I'll say he learned everything he knows at Harps.

we may have aided their progression but they didnt come through our youths like - which was the crux of the argument
you gonna give us credit for Mooney? Darren Murphy? (Cobh)

[nigel-harps1954]

we may have aided their progression but they didnt come through our youths like - which was the crux of the argument
you gonna give us credit for Mooney? Darren Murphy? (Cobh)

Sure, why not?

[El-Pietro]

Sure, why not?

well then our Youth System is incredible!

of our 2005 Championship, 2007 FAI Cup, 2008 Setanta Cup and 2011 First Division Championship winning side 100% of our players were either signed for other LOI clubs, came through our youth academy or returned from the UK!