QuoteAround 400 in Finn Park last night for a cracker of a match.
No it's not.Originally Posted by donnrua
It's dismal.
Around 400 in Finn Park last night for a cracker of a match.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Not great but not dismal. As mentioned we were playing a terrible team that would have no pull crowd wise with maybe a traveling support of three. The Longford match in two weeks should see a big improvement if we stay top. Even Shamrock Rovers get hit by a few thousand supporters for games that aren't considered big ones. Us in the FAI Cup (approx 1,200) with us bring around 120 and Athlone (600 approx) last year compared to normally over 3,000.
I dont know .... i just think at the base minimum all LOI clubs should be getting 1,000 through the gate every game. And if thats not happening then the club needs to recognise this as a crisis and immediately needs to be addressed.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Make it 7,000 while you're at it.
A Face is right, if all the first division clubs were to get 1,000 regularly at their home games they wouldnt have too many worries, you could add a few premier division clubs to that list aswell.
Would bigger crowds be a good thing? Of course.
To just pluck a number of 1,000 from nowhere and say that not meeting this number is a crisis is idiocy.
An arbitrary figure of 1,000 is insane and takes no account of the difference in catchment areas between clubs.
1000 isn't a figure plucked out of the sky, i'm not in the habit of doing that to be honest. 1000 is roughly the figure that most LOI clubs need to be reaching since the licencing / extra scrutiny on clubs finances has started ...... coming out with a figure of 7000, now thats a figure thats plucked out of the sky and practically impossible for at least 40% of clubs right now no matter what they tried.
Y'see, .... 1000 is realistic and a target which is practical for most clubs. If its not then that clubs will join Dublin City, Kildare County, Cobh, Sporting Fingal and Monaghan in a very short space of time i'd be guessing.
Last edited by A face; 22/07/2012 at 7:01 PM.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Exactly, couldn't agree with you more, and before time that will catch up with a club and they'll go the very same way Momaghan did, and Sporting Fingal .... And Dublin City ...... and Kildare County ..... And Cobh Ramblers ..... and Kilkenny City ...... and then it wont even be worth a post on a forum, they'll just be gone and we wont be having this conversation.
Last edited by A face; 22/07/2012 at 7:50 PM.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Sligo v Cork City ... 2227
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Low crowds will only catch up with clubs if they've budgeted for a higher figure. Income isn't what makes clubs unsustainable, it's spending. Mons survived fine when they had a budget based on realistic income - when they budgeted for massive sponsorship and/ or a unrealistic increase in crowds they became unsustainable.
Averages after week 18: (Missing UCD v Pats and Harps v Wexford from this weekends fixtures)
PREMIER DIVISION
Bohs - 1644 (2011 - 1,488; 2010- 1,835; 2009 - 2,366; 2008 - 1,993; 2007 - 1,924; 2006 - 1,463; 2005 - 1,976)
Bray - 1000 (1,121; 952; 1,169; 1,106; 1,200; 1,027; 1,550)
Cork - 3126 (2,128 FD; 1,693 FD; 2,681; 3,142; 2,897; 2,941; 3,644)
Derry - 1711 (2,135; 1,965 FD; 2,436; 3,363; 2,614; 3,229; 2,698)
Drogheda - 1014 (811; 859; 1,106; 1,631; 1,919; 1,751; 1,682)
Dundalk - 1097 (1,355; 1,877; 2,371; 1,459 FD; 1,406 FD; 1,078 FD; 474 FD)
Pat's - 1620 (1,346; 1,756; 1,631; 1,795; 1,910; 1,342; 1,599)
Rovers - 3322 (3,779; 3,794; 3,611; 1,468; 1,715; 1,089 FD; 1,539)
Shels - 1371 (781 FD; 737 FD; 972 FD; 986 FD; 888 FD; 1,690; 1,949)
Sligo - 2333 (2,103; 1,807; 1,756; 1,960; 1,448; 1,806; 1,794 FD)
UCD - 481 (558; 610; 272 FD; 546; 663; 546; 653; 306 FD)
FIRST DIVISION
Athlone - 300 (200; 354; 462; 387; 670; 421; 316)
Harps - 452 (433; 644; 480; 1,607 PD; 1,164; 428; 1,347 PD; 1,106) -
Limerick - 644 (569; 598; 429; 517; 670; 364; 669)
Longford - 406 (315; 230; 260; 406; 885 PD; 681 PD; 1,004 PD)
Mervue - 253 (349; 123; 166)
SD Galway - 216 (125; 122 - As Salthill Devon FC)
Waterford - 410 (466; 619; 434; 670; 1,181 PD; 915 PD; 1,513 PD)
Wexford - 365 (216; 343; 494; 767; 810)
PREMIER AVERAGE: 1702
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 381
OVERALL AVERAGE: 1146
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
The day every first division club gets over 1,000 people through the gates is the day I tie my hair to my toes and hang from two poles letting people use me as a hammock.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
And until that very day clubs who dont strive to get at least that very modest attendance (in the scheme of things) will continue to struggle. Yes they might be able to just about keep going, and shave all costs right down to the wire, and scrimp and scrape and juggle the funds and hope on a wing and a prayer, or have to go cap in hand to someone in the community if heaven forbid there were too many fines in one month for the club to contend with, or the insurance cost were just a bit too big this year or some other curve-ball is thrown at them. Yes clubs can 'exist' on a shoe string budget, and stamina and endurance and staying-power are the words to describe them but they are graveyards of ambition until they get their acts together and get people through the gates.
If clubs can sell an advert in their programme on the strength of 1000 people potential seeing it, rather than a local business taking pity and taking out the advert as a means of donating the money then clubs will be alot better off. Thats my argument. As soon as clubs can get 1000 people through (ideally 2000) then they can exist and florish. Until then its always ..... and i mean always, backs to the wall because it IS stamina and endurance and staying-power that allow clubs to exist.
I started a thread recently about LOI clubs relationships with schoolboys football. I started it because i think that that is where LOI clubs need to look at to bump up attenances, people who are involved in the game, and they know what it is to run a club and ensure there is training gear, buses, first aid kit, bog standard stuff to run a club, in place to enble the team to go and play and they can relate to whats needed for a team to exist.
Until LOI clubs get 1000 through the gate, this league will be on its knees ..... if its not a crisis for clubs, then its complete acceptance of their situation. I know its the target that City had in the first because it was the bare minimun that was needs when the club was absolutely crippled.
Last edited by A face; 22/07/2012 at 9:32 PM.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Shelbourne... Shamrock Rovers... Derry City... Cork City... Bohemians - attendances mean jack **** compared to the corporate culture at a club. Clubs like Waterford and Longford operate within their means with attendances much lower than 1000.
I would be delighted if we had a league strong enough that clubs with attendances <1000 were no longer financially viable in our league, but that will only happen if all the other clubs pull up their socks to the extent that such clubs are too small to survive at the top level.
Ok, the five clubs there, when they had problems they were living well beyond their means, or rule breaking or basic mismanagement ...... and that aint something any club can do ..... with 50 or 5000 in attendance ...... it just simply aint gonna happen for ya and serveral found that out to their cost. I know thats a completely seperate issue to what was being debated but fair play to ya, its no harm in stating it, no matter how obvious.
And they dont have financial burden or problems? They dont stress over numbers or try to juggle the figures etc? They are perfectly viable clubs who can withstand anything thrown at them? Does the treasurer of those clubs sleep well every night? They dont live hand to mouth and if another epidemic of foot and mouth out broke out and they didn't have a home game for four months, even three months, they would be perfectly able to withstand that burden?Clubs like Waterford and Longford operate within their means with attendances much lower than 1000.
Dude, if you are gonna say yes, then i'm gonna say i dont believe ya. Thats where i'm at .... and that IS my point, i'm saying clubs need to get to a stage where the lowest average attendance is 1000, to just exist and be able to devote their energy and attention to playing football and developing players and improving the matchday experience and all that kind of stuff, not the trying to scrape money for a bus together for an away game, or money to pay a ref, or the local security company for the last few games because some club up the road sent a bus load of social degenerate test-tube fookwits to one of your home games and they broke up a bar and a shop during that visit, and since then local business and residents have been screaming for a knee jerk reaction and your club has to foot the bill. It all happens !!
Nah man, you haven't done it .... you've not convinced me. I'll be honest all i got from that was 'mediocrity' and thats grand, fine by me if thats what you want. If you are saying that a viable strategy to managing a club is to hope the other clubs dont 'pull up their socks to the extent that such clubs are too small to survive at the top level' is the way to go then i'm gonna say i aint on the same page, i just dont think its a good game plan. So much so, if the chairman of my club came out with something like that then i would be looking to see who else is out there to do a better job. But that could be just me !!I would be delighted if we had a league strong enough that clubs with attendances <1000 were no longer financially viable in our league, but that will only happen if all the other clubs pull up their socks to the extent that such clubs are too small to survive at the top level.
Last edited by A face; 23/07/2012 at 12:18 AM.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
I think that's the point I was making. Attendances aren't what makes a club sustainable - prudent management is, whether you have 500 a week or 5000.
Those clubs have problems, obviously, but they aren't related to baseline attendances. They cut their cloth according to their coat, and right now that is enough to sustain a high-ranking first division club. If the league progresses and PD teams start hosting regular crowds of 2000+, then there will be pressure on them, but right now they are big enough to sustainably challenge for the top table.And they dont have financial burden or problems? They dont stress over numbers or try to juggle the figures etc? They are perfectly viable clubs who can withstand anything thrown at them? Does the treasurer of those clubs sleep well every night? They dont live hand to mouth and if another epidemic of foot and mouth out broke out and they didn't have a home game for four months, even three months, they would be perfectly able to withstand that burden?
I agree with you, I think, I just think you are phrasing your argument wrong. It would be great if all LOI teams needed 1000 people per game to keep at the top table, but the fact is they can get by on a lot less and do. Any change to that status quo will need to come from all levels of the game, not just the bottom clubs increasing their attendances.Dude, if you are gonna say yes, then i'm gonna say i dont believe ya. Thats where i'm at .... and that IS my point, i'm saying clubs need to get to a stage where the lowest average attendance is 1000, to just exist and be able to devote their energy and attention to playing football and developing players and improving the matchday experience and all that kind of stuff, not the trying to scrape money for a bus together for an away game, or money to pay a ref, or the local security company for the last few games because some club up the road sent a bus load of social degenerate test-tube fookwits to one of your home games and they broke up a bar and a shop during that visit, and since then local business and residents have been screaming for a knee jerk reaction and your club has to foot the bill. It all happens !!
Nah man, you haven't done it .... you've not convinced me. I'll be honest all i got from that was 'mediocrity' and thats grand, fine by me if thats what you want. If you are saying that a viable strategy to managing a club is to hope the other clubs dont 'pull up their socks to the extent that such clubs are too small to survive at the top level' is the way to go then i'm gonna say i aint on the same page, i just dont think its a good game plan. So much so, if the chairman of my club came out with something like that then i would be looking to see who else is out there to do a better job. But that could be just me !!
Exactly. The fact that A Face hasn't worked this out by now is baffling.
On what do you base this? On what numbers/evidence? Have you seen the books at first division clubs? Are you confident that a club like Mervue need the same figure to survive that a club like Limerick do? Do they have the same costs to run the club?
As I said, it's a figure you've plucked out of nowhere. It may have been the figure Cork needed when they were in trouble, but that's no reason to suggest that 1,000 the same figure is what everybody needs.
And these problems only apply to teams whose attendances are under 1000? You say that the issue of Cork, Derry, Shels etc going bust is completely unrelated, but it's absolutely central to the issue - budgeting is everything. There is no magic number after which all financial problems go away - no matter how big your crowds are, if you spend more than you bring in, you'll be in trouble.And they dont have financial burden or problems? They dont stress over numbers or try to juggle the figures etc? They are perfectly viable clubs who can withstand anything thrown at them? Does the treasurer of those clubs sleep well every night?
It is a completely arbitrary figure.
Plucked at random from your arse.
Which doesn't take anything else into account.
At all.
"Because I don't normally do that" and "because I say so" aren't good counter arguments to this fact.
A load of straw clubs if you will.Y'see, .... 1000 is realistic and a target which is practical for most clubs. If its not then that clubs will join Dublin City, Kildare County, Cobh, Sporting Fingal and Monaghan in a very short space of time i'd be guessing.
Cobh aside (who were every bit as poorly ran as a Cork or a Bohs) all those clubs were either makey uppy or plonked in areas where no one was ever going to give a shiznit about them. And even Monaghan lasted 26 years.
Absolute brain fart which could be applied to every club in the land.
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