2012 attendances

[A face]

I think that's the point I was making. Attendances aren't what makes a club sustainable - prudent management is, whether you have 500 a week or 5000.

We've covered that ..... its a given, and stating the obvious and as i said no harm in stating that.

Those clubs have problems, obviously, but they aren't related to baseline attendances.

My point is, that if their spending stayed the same and they managed to get 1000 through the gate on a regular basis then clubs wouldn't see management problems and should be able to kick on and develop their clubs, so its not just fire fighting trying to balance the books.

They cut their cloth according to their coat, and right now that is enough to sustain a high-ranking first division club. If the league progresses and PD teams start hosting regular crowds of 2000+, then there will be pressure on them, but right now they are big enough to sustainably challenge for the top table.

As i said, i wouldn't like to leave it to chance, i'd rather a club would be looking to increase attendances and in turn sponsorship and merchanise. I wouldn't like a club to be doing so much cutting that they end up with a waistcoat, thats what i'm getting at. My point is about direction, not standing still, not balancing the books one month and theres a collective sigh of relief around the table, and clubs start the whole 'what if' uncertainty again the next month

I agree with you, I think, I just think you are phrasing your argument wrong. It would be great if all LOI teams needed 1000 people per game to keep at the top table, but the fact is they can get by on a lot less and do. Any change to that status quo will need to come from all levels of the game, not just the bottom clubs increasing their attendances.

Ok, i know they can do with alot less, hopefully they are all balancing the books and not getting into trouble but its hard, damn hard and i would be thinking that clubs are feeling it and are only holding waistcoats as it stands.

On what do you base this? On what numbers/evidence? Have you seen the books at first division clubs?

C'mon, keep it sensible willya, of course i haven't got evidence. Its merely estimation but are you going to argue down over buttons? How much do you think clubs need, and how much do they differ from club to club given they are all in the same game, have to adhere to the same licencing, all try and raise funds pretty much through the same means. They all have the same base costs and its not millions we are dealing with when all the clubs in question are looking at 500 or less average attendances.

Are you confident that a club like Mervue need the same figure to survive that a club like Limerick do? Do they have the same costs to run the club?

No, but i am saying that these clubs, all clubs have the same base costs and outgoings as the next one. Obviously it will differ from club to club but when you are only getting 150 through the gate each game then you know and i know its not gonna differ much.

And some clubs can exist, barely keep afloat, barely hanging on, remorgaging the house to keep it ticking over, just keeping the light on, yeah you're right they can do it and you can give them all the medals and accolades you want, 'sure aren't they great altogether, aren't they a model club!' .... NO they are no a model club !! i wouldn't want all LOI clubs modeled on that. I'm saying clubs should be aimming to be getting at least 1000 through the gate to give them at least a fighting chance. And you are missing my point .... i'm on about clubs not having to scraping the barrell here, wallowing in mediocrity (unless they have another means of income).

As I said, it's a figure you've plucked out of nowhere. It may have been the figure Cork needed when they were in trouble, but that's no reason to suggest that 1,000 the same figure is what everybody needs.

Yes i chose the figure 1000 as opposed to breaking down each clubs costs one by one applying the same ratio and forumla to their balance sheet, come off the stage will for one second FFS ..... i'm not going to go to the trouble of establishing the ideal sum of revenue each club needs to make to sustain existence, i'm going to pick a realistic figure that i think clubs should be aimming for ..... 1000 people for a league and clubs our size isn't unattainable imo ...... and if you think it is unattainable then i think those clubs should throw the towel in now

And these problems only apply to teams whose attendances are under 1000? You say that the issue of Cork, Derry, Shels etc going bust is completely unrelated

Then why bring it up

but it's absolutely central to the issue

No its not .... you think its central to my point and i'm telling you its not

budgeting is everything.

Everything and nothing ..... nothing to do with my point that is

There is no magic number after which all financial problems go away - no matter how big your crowds are, if you spend more than you bring in, you'll be in trouble.

There is no magic, trickery or illusion here ....... its black and white ...... its plain and simple ...... if clubs want to give themselves a break and progress then they need to work on attendances ......

Balancing books are a given, prudence, not over spending, not spending what you dont or wont have .... we've covered that, give it a rest willya.

Imagine for a second if you have a red line ...... and that red line defines the level of where the books are balanced in column A and the same red line extends over to column B which is 473 average attenance for the season ....... now let yourself go for a second, out of body experience n'all and just let it happen .... raise that red line up until the average attendance column is 1000 and over at column A there is a gap between where the books balance and where the red line is

[Lim till i die]

On Limericks' crowds, I'm very pleased with them.

Actually up on last year in a division completely devoid of "glamour", we've the highest average and by quite a distance.

That Salthill game the other night wouldn't have attracted 300 a couple of years ago.

Every club has their own yard sticks by which to measure their progress. It isn't a decade since Limerick senior soccer had a hardcore following in the low dozens. This has increased possibly twenty fold in the intervening.

It's also worth remembering the ground is a toilet. If we had a Turners Cross or a Terryland I dare say we'd hit the magic 1000.

[A face]

On Limericks' crowds, I'm very pleased with them.

Limerick - 644 (569; 598; 429; 517; 670; 364; 669)

CSO figures for population of Limerick in 2011 ..... 191,306

644 / 191,306 = 0.3366334563474225%

Fair play fella ..... if you're happy with that then i've no more to say on that one really

[Dodge]

My point is, that if their spending stayed the same and they managed to get 1000 through the gate on a regular basis then clubs wouldn't see management problems and should be able to kick on and develop their clubs, so its not just fire fighting trying to balance the books.

Do you think people are against increasing crowds?

As i said, i wouldn't like to leave it to chance, i'd rather a club would be looking to increase attendances and in turn sponsorship and merchanise. I wouldn't like a club to be doing so much cutting that they end up with a waistcoat, thats what i'm getting at. My point is about direction, not standing still, not balancing the books one month and theres a collective sigh of relief around the table, and clubs start the whole 'what if' uncertainty again the next month

To put it pluntly, many clubs simply don't have the luxury of not worrying about paying bills.

They all have the same base costs

Thats clearly not true. Rent for some, training grounds for others. We could go on

And some clubs can exist, barely keep afloat, barely hanging on, remorgaging the house to keep it ticking over, just keeping the light on, yeah you're right they can do it and you can give them all the medals and accolades you want, 'sure aren't they great altogether, aren't they a model club!' .... NO they are no a model club !! i wouldn't want all LOI clubs modeled on that. I'm saying clubs should be aimming to be getting at least 1000 through the gate to give them at least a fighting chance. And you are missing my point .... i'm on about clubs not having to scraping the barrell here, wallowing in mediocrity (unless they have another means of income).

its called the Ollie Byrne pyramid of greatness

There is no magic, trickery or illusion here ....... its black and white ...... its plain and simple ...... if clubs want to give themselves a break and progress then they need to work on attendances ......

What clubs do you think AREN'T working on attendances


A face you're a smart bloke with plenty of LOI experi4nce, but your last few posts are among the worst I've ever read on these forums.

You have to realise that every club is doing EVERY thing it can within its power to increse attendances and investment (sponoship etc). Its frankly pathetic for you to think that you have more ambitions for these clubs than the people running them. Your posts have no basis in the reality they work in. Sure they make mistakes, but thats what happens when idealistic fluff is challenged

"Hey everyone lets get a load of sponsors and get a load of new people in the gate!" Why did no one think of that before?

[Lim till i die]

Ridiculous, laughable, bit of argument there, but if you insist.

Cork - 3126

Population of Cork - 518218

= .603221

Bear in mind now that you play in the Premier Division in Turners Cross.

Just to clarify, using the "logic" you just used in that pitiful attempt at a point, Monaghan were easily one of the best supported clubs in the league.

Easily.

You're struggling badly here face.

[nigel-harps1954]

To say I'm still surprisingly gutted at how bad Harps attendances are, is an understatement. Average attendance this season 452, which given the circumstances, is actually quite good. But I do remember the days when there was as many as 5,000/6,000 people in Finn Park for derby games with Derry/Sligo or what have you.

The fact of the matter is, if each first division club can sustain over 500 people per game, that's a success. A target of 1,000 is not out of the question for some of the clubs, but look at the sheer neglect the first division see's. How can any club expect to get such attendances when I'd say a good 1/5 of people in this country either forget or don't even know there is a first division here.

Only when a team is doing well do we see crowds up as high as 1,000 in this division. Just because Cork are doing well in a city of 200,000 people doesn't mean the likes of Harps, Limerick, Waterford, Athlone, Wexford and Longford should be getting the same crowds. Set aside Mervue and Salthill here for obvious reasons.

In the Premier division it's easy to say, every club should be reaching 2,000 people a game. A league that is covered in the national media to some extent, live television, a highlights package, radio and newspaper coverage. Looking at the catchment areas of clubs, they should be getting 2,000 a game easily in a so-called football mad country. But there is zero coverage of the first division apart from maybe local media. Any advertising and marketing, the clubs have to do themselves.

To put it lightly, if Harps were pushing for promotion, sitting in the top 3 now, we'd see crowds up 700+ easily. It's always the case, always will be the case.
While we're sitting in 6th place, pushing for 4th place, calling that a successful season, we'll stay with our 450 average.

[Macy]

Fair play fella ..... if you're happy with that then i've no more to say on that one really

It's progress for them. How has relatively high attendances worked out for Cork clubs down through the years? Attendance is irrelevant if the spending is more than income.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying short term attendance growth is a major danger in this league - a number of clubs have got themselves in trouble after the initial burst in attendances following a promotion wears off - Us, Galway, Dundalk to name three off the top of my head. The nature of the Irish sporting to public is to hop on and off a bandwagon.

[Lim till i die]

My point is, that if their spending stayed the same and they managed to get 1000 through the gate on a regular basis then clubs wouldn't see management problems and should be able to kick on and develop their clubs, so its not just fire fighting trying to balance the books.

So your point is that if clubs spent the same money and took in more money they'd possibly have extra money left over to do different things with??

Errr.... ya, thanks for that.

No need to take the ring road on the way to your point next time though yeah?

[A face]

"Hey everyone lets get a load of sponsors and get a load of new people in the gate!" Why did no one think of that before?

Hold up a second ... here is what i was replying to initially ....

when you consider the fact that we were playing the worst team to play in the league in many years it wasn't that bad of an attendance!!!!!

I dont know .... i just think at the base minimum all LOI clubs should be getting 1,000 through the gate every game. And if thats not happening then the club needs to recognise this as a crisis and immediately needs to be addressed.

And i think that on a footall forum, i should be be able to say that i think that is a realistic figure for an average attendance for clubs in the first. Its an average figure FFS .... i was never going to go and give an average figure for each individual club. I gave the figure because its a target that i think clubs should have ..... they probably all have a target anyway. It was always an aspirational figure ..... what else was it ever going to be FFS, of course it cant to attributed to all clubs equally, i never said that.

I always said in response to Charles and Osarusan that clubs need to balance the books, i never said anything different so why it got dragged off that way i dont know

So your point is that if clubs spent the same money and took in more money they'd possibly have extra money left over to do different things with?? Errr.... ya, thanks for that. No need to take the ring road on the way to your point next time though yeah?

Again, i never steered the argument thatr way so, i was just responding ..... and i was always saying it was stating the obvious. I wasn't saying this is ground breaking stuff here lads, this is what clubs should do and it will solve all their problems.

It is a completely arbitrary figure. Plucked at random from your arse. Which doesn't take anything else into account. At all.

Of course it was arbitrary, its a fourm and its an opinion. I never said i had the figures, but i still maintain that its not beyond the bounds of possiblity that LOI clubs aim for that as a low average for attendance. There is nothing wrong with saying that .... its not unrealistic, i never said that clubs hadn't thought of that before. It was always offered as my opinion and it hasn't changed either

Its a píss poor set of figures, pathetic and i passed judgement on it ...... sue me FFS

Its an attendance figures thread and i said thats what i thought an average attendance should be, where is the crime in that ????

A load of straw clubs if you will. Cobh aside (who were every bit as poorly ran as a Cork or a Bohs) all those clubs were either makey uppy or plonked in areas where no one was ever going to give a shiznit about them. And even Monaghan lasted 26 years..

And i agree with that, they were straw clubs and they are gone, and i think that while clubs have attendance averages they way they are right now then they will be more clubs go that way.

Charles and Osarusan kept saying if its working for clubs with low figures then its fine by them. I disagree, maybe not in the short term but definitely in the long term, clubs who struggle to attract crowds of 1000 (IMO, In My Opinion) will struggle to exist, possibly short term and definitely long term. Its my opnion !!!!!

You said it yourself, straw clubs ..... they will go. Monaghan are a club who always hung on, and balanced the books, kept their noses clean and under the radar, a template for any club and all that lark, but they went the same way ..... and thats my point. If clubs dont get beyond that (and i think increasing attendance is the best way to get more stable) then there will always be some club go in the middle of a season.

Its not ground breaking ..... its not a new way of doing things ..... people know this with years ....... and i simple gave my opinion on it

In fact, I'd go as far as saying short term attendance growth is a major danger in this league - a number of clubs have got themselves in trouble after the initial burst in attendances following a promotion wears off - Us, Galway, Dundalk to name three off the top of my head. The nature of the Irish sporting to public is to hop on and off a bandwagon.

Agreed with that actually, definitely a history of that alright.

[osarusan]

Charles and Osarusan kept saying if its working for clubs with low figures then its fine by them. I disagree, maybe not in the short term but definitely in the long term, clubs who struggle to attract crowds of 1000 (IMO, In My Opinion) will struggle to exist, possibly short term and definitely long term. Its my opnion !!!!!

I didn't say that low attendances are fine with me - I stated clearly that we all want to see better crowds.

Your initial post was that every club should aim for 1000 a game and consider themselves in crisis if they didn't achieve that. I've pointed out that you don't have to be in crisis even if your crowds are under 1000, and crowds over 1000 are no guarantee that there will be no crisis.

If your point is that a well-managed club with good crowds is in a better position than a well-balanced club with poor crowds, then we're in agreement, but as pointed out earlier, you took your time getting to the point.

[A face]

Your initial post was that every club should aim for 1000 a game and consider themselves in crisis if they didn't achieve that. I've pointed out that you don't have to be in crisis even if your crowds are under 1000, and crowds over 1000 are no guarantee that there will be no crisis.

Well they'll be a damn sight more stable than clubs under the 1000 (with the same spending, for fear it would get twisted again )

[Dodge]

Well they'll be a damn sight more stable than clubs under the 1000 (with the same spending, for fear it would get twisted again )

Clubs who have gone bust in the past 5 years. Derry, Cork, Fingal, Galway, Monaghan. 3 of them averaged over 1,000 per game.

So you can quit with the glib remarks now that people are pointing out how rubbish your 'crisis' post was

[A face]

Clubs who have gone bust in the past 5 years. Derry, Cork, Fingal, Galway, Monaghan. 3 of them averaged over 1,000 per game. So you can quit with the glib remarks now that people are pointing out how rubbish your 'crisis' post was

Go back further ..... go back 10 years

And at this point i dont really care. The attendances are pathetic either way, balanced books or not ....... the frinkin' league is in crisis Dodge, its on its feicin' knees FFS

[Dodge]

Go back further ..... go back 10 years

And at this point i dont really care. The attendances are pathetic either way, balanced books or not ....... the frinkin' league is in crisis Dodge, its on its feicin' knees FFS

So any ideas on how to fix it other than issuing a dictat "get 1,000 people in each week or consider yourslves in crisis"

Its the BS rhetoric I'm arguing with you over. Not the idea that crowds are brutal

[A face]

So any ideas on how to fix it other than issuing a dictat "get 1,000 people in each week or consider yourslves in crisis"

I've plenty of them !!

Its the BS rhetoric I'm arguing with you over. Not the idea that crowds are brutal

Its not rhetoric Dodge, and i never offered it as the 'be all and end all' of solutions. It was an observation, a comment of the figures listed within and i deemed it a crisis and i still think so.

cri·sis - (ˈkrīsis')

Noun:

A time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger. A time when a difficult or important decision must be made: "a crisis point of history".

You can take it or leave it, i'm not bothered to be honest, you've done nothing to change my opinion and you're not likely to do so in this thread, not to undermine your opinion or any one elses if it was offered. Attendances are abysmal !!!!

[Comic Book Guy]

If all clubs in the league could get to a situation where gate receipts are seen as a bonus rather than the key income stream the league would be in a far better state, in other words where clubs have other income strams such as sponsorship, bar income, rental income etc.
You can call it living within your means if you like but until such time as this happens we will lurch from crisis to crisis.

[A face]

If all clubs in the league could get to a situation where gate receipts are seen as a bonus rather than the key income stream the league would be in a far better state, in other words where clubs have other income strams such as sponsorship, bar income, rental income etc.
You can call it living within your means if you like but until such time as this happens we will lurch from crisis to crisis.

Agreed in theory, and definitely a policy you'd like to see LOI adopt. The thing is i think attendances (good ones) help get the sponsorship in. If a business knows that its going to see more of a return for the money it spends on marketing (pitch hoardings, programme adverts, etc.) then they are more likely to sponsor. But definitely agreed in theory

[Dodge]

Attendances are abysmal !!!!

And I'll ask again. Why did you feel the need to post this if not to furthe debate. If its just an observation, its mone that been made a million times. No one argues other wise

[A face]

And I'll ask again. Why did you feel the need to post this if not to furthe debate.

Dodge, i posted my opinion (which i am fully entitled to have) and i feel that CD and Osarusan misunderstood what i was saying so i attempted to explain what i meant, while engauging in debate as well. I do recognise the people were getting a bit het up over my opinion and thats fair enough. I tried to explain and if that aint enough then so be it ..... but there is no way than people can go and say that i meant one thing and when i'm telling you, explaining to you what i actually meant.

If its just an observation, its one that been made a million times. No one argues other wise

I made the observation again Dodge, shoot me .... as you say its been made a million times before and none of those posters were wrong then either (IMO)

[marinobohs]

If all clubs in the league could get to a situation where gate receipts are seen as a bonus rather than the key income stream the league would be in a far better state, in other words where clubs have other income strams such as sponsorship, bar income, rental income etc.
You can call it living within your means if you like but until such time as this happens we will lurch from crisis to crisis.

.........and if only clubs would get a sugar daddy......... or win the euro millions
Most clubs survive week to week and do trojan work to do just that. Suggesting they should improve crowds or have other income streams are bizarre.

What the hell do peolpe think they have been trying to do ????????????????????