Referendum to be held on European fiscal compact

[Macy]

Yeah cause that's what all the no side were on about, seriously,tsk.

But "yes for jobs" was the only thing the yes side said?? FFS...

[bennocelt]

But "yes for jobs" was the only thing the yes side said?? FFS...

But that was coming from most of the FF/FG rhetoric, a big difference to be fair.

[legendz]

Isn't a part of this our support for the euro currency or not? Obviously we're in it and not looking to leave but a stronger euro needs certain fiscal policies to be brought in between states so that the eurozone will be more stable.

[born2bwild]

What should be on the table?

My stolen 600eu pm.

[pineapple stu]

Your stolen E600 p/m that you wouldn't have been earning had not the country become artificially "rich" by borrowing lots and lots of money?

We've got to get used to the notion that we're not a rich country, and the days of nice wages and new cars and cool phones are gone. For a long time.

[mypost]

Or maybe a majority just agreed with the treaty rather than just deciding to obey the Government.

The decision was best summed up by me by the line of a voter on the day of the poll reported in the British press: "This is my vote and basically I've been told what to do with it." That's how it was for many people.

On this whole being asked twice thing, would people prefer that we were stuck in the dark ages regarding divorce, if the first defeated referendum has been allowed to stand? Or is it just because the second Nice and Lisbon referenda didn't give the answer you wanted?

You're not seriously comparing an exclusively Irish referendum with a European one?

Assuming people actually believed that in the first place, and voted purely on that basis. Still, at least we can be comforted by knowing that the no side were right about tax harmonisation, self amending treaty, conscription to an EU army and abortions, eh? Both sides are as bad as each other when it comes to trying to convince the gullible.

I made many arguments over Lisbon, none of them were to do with EU armies or abortions. Our tax rates are constantly threatened everytime we go looking for something in Europe. They want something in return, and the first thing they go for is the corp tax rate. Lisbon is self-amending, this is the first European referendum since, there was no automatic right to one, the AG simply decided "on balance" there should be one.

Isn't a part of this our support for the euro currency or not? Obviously we're in it and not looking to leave but a stronger euro needs certain fiscal policies to be brought in between states so that the eurozone will be more stable.

I'm pro-Euro but this is nothing to do with the Euro currency. There are 8 non-Euro countries in this agreement. This is a question of whether we want to be part of the agreement or not also.

[Charlie Darwin]

I made many arguments over Lisbon, none of them were to do with EU armies or abortions. Our tax rates are constantly threatened everytime we go looking for something in Europe. They want something in return, and the first thing they go for is the corp tax rate. Lisbon is self-amending, this is the first European referendum since, there was no automatic right to one, the AG simply decided "on balance" there should be one.

No, you've misunderstood. The AG decided a referendum was required because the terms of the compact would require Ireland enshrine its tenets in national law, and it's impossible for the government to do this with legislation alone. The referendum will basically ask us if we want to enshrine strict budgetary controls in national law for good, and we the people are the only ones with the authority to do that. Even if this was introduced through amending Lisbon, we'd still have to amend the Constitution to enshrine it in law, so a referendum would still be required.

[born2bwild]

Your stolen E600 p/m that you wouldn't have been earning had not the country become artificially "rich" by borrowing lots and lots of money?

We've got to get used to the notion that we're not a rich country, and the days of nice wages and new cars and cool phones are gone. For a long time.

No, the 600eu p/m that I worked for.

I'm still working except that I'm doing two people's work now for 600 eu less. That's not 'rich' - I'm barely above the breadline.

Plenty of nice wages, new cars and cool phones five minutes' drive from me over in Malahide. Plenty of wealth in this country.

I don't accept this 'we' nonsense. 'They' decided to underwrite the gambling debts of capitalists who 'they' consider too big to go under.

I won't accept it and they can shove 'their' treaty up 'their' holes.

[Macy]

The decision was best summed up by me by the line of a voter on the day of the poll reported in the British press: "This is my vote and basically I've been told what to do with it." That's how it was for many people.

Voters were asked to support it, for a variety of reasons. No one forced any voter to vote either way. Anyone who genuinely believed is probably a bit of a knob.

You're not seriously comparing an exclusively Irish referendum with a European one?

Yes. We don't have irish or european referenda. We have constitutional ones. I don't see why the principle is different.

I made many arguments over Lisbon, none of them were to do with EU armies or abortions. Our tax rates are constantly threatened everytime we go looking for something in Europe. They want something in return, and the first thing they go for is the corp tax rate. Lisbon is self-amending, this is the first European referendum since, there was no automatic right to one, the AG simply decided "on balance" there should be one.

And have our tax rates changed? They wouldn't need to threaten if they could just do it.

Do you honestly think that if the AG didn't think there was a need, we'd be having one? Even with the knowledge that the President would most likely refer it to the Supreme Court to be sure? You're assuming the phrase Kenny used was exactly what the AG said.

[pineapple stu]

No, the 600eu p/m that I worked for.

You were overpaid. I'm overpaid. We're all overpaid, and borrowing is a good chunk of how that's come to be. We're going to have to accept that fact and adjust.

[Eminence Grise]

We had to be overpaid to pay for the overpriced goods and services... They're not dropping as much as salaries and wages, or social welfare benefits.

Inclined to vote against the compact.

[Mr A]

The Sunday Business Post has a list of 5 essential things you need to know about the treaty here: http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/H...f-c58021195434

The five things are:

• The Treaty comes into effect January 1 2013, provided at last 12 countries sign up.
  
• Its basic requirement is that national budgets must be "balanced or in surplus". This rule is also deemed upheld if a country follows a country specific medium-term objective. Deviations are permitted "in exceptional circumstances" only.
  
• Countries must commit to the balanced budget rule in a permanent way, "preferably constitutional".
  
• If countries have excessive deficits, they must agree a plan with the EU to reduce them.
  
• Ratifying the treaty is the only way to access the euro zone's planned permanent emergency fund.

There's also an assessment by Cliff Taylor here: http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/C...5-91b778500710

In general, I think that being in a single currency , it's a good idea to have a set of rules that make it less likely that one member can go bananas (like the Greeks did pretty stylishly) and take everyone down with them. But I'm not sure these rules will really do that.

What jumps out at me is that we got ourselves into a heap of trouble while we probably would have been meeting these rules. Plus this treaty seems to rule out the idea of ever providing a major stimulus to attempt to break out of downward spirals, which seems to be an unnecessary limitation on the countries involved.

Basically, I can see arguments that the rules will be too strict in some scenarios and also that they won't really be strict enough to prevent future meltdowns. But then this treaty isn't really about the banking and financial sector who ballsed things up pretty badly last time round.

On balance I don't think it's a bad thing to commit to keeping our budget in check- we should do that anyway, but I'm not sure how I'll vote yet.

However I think the treaty will be defeated in any case. I really cannot see it getting through with the current mood in the country. I have been very uncomfortable with some of the stuff coming from Germany and France through this crisis, the EU isn't meant to be dominated this way, and it's not so long ago they were the ones breaking financial rules and doling out the cash for the delinquents to spend on their exports. Leaks from the German parliament are hideously embarrassing and increase the perception that all our decisions are being made for us. Not strictly relevant to the question at hand but it certainly poisons the atmosphere against the EU.

Anyhow.. bit of a random stream of consciousness there but I'd better go do some work so will leave it at that for now...

[Charlie Darwin]

What jumps out at me is that we got ourselves into a heap of trouble while we probably would have been meeting these rules.

You can go further than that. We met these rules right up until 2008, while the economy was actively collapsing around us. This compact would have done nothing to prevent what happened here or anywhere in Europe except Greece.

[Macy]

However I think the treaty will be defeated in any case. I really cannot see it getting through with the current mood in the country. I have been very uncomfortable with some of the stuff coming from Germany and France through this crisis, the EU isn't meant to be dominated this way, and it's not so long ago they were the ones breaking financial rules and doling out the cash for the delinquents to spend on their exports. Leaks from the German parliament are hideously embarrassing and increase the perception that all our decisions are being made for us. Not strictly relevant to the question at hand but it certainly poisons the atmosphere against the EU.

I'd echo a lot of your post, but I'd just add Germany and France were actually the first ones* to break the financial rules out of the entire eurozone! *based on figures at the time, which may or may not have really been the case for Greece. There's also the whole issue of the definition of a structual deficit, of which there are many at the moment. It's very hard to judge the possible effect when we are not 100% sure on that.

I'm not sure how I'll vote. The mood music has already started to suggest it's effectively a referendum on staying in the eurozone, given that the other countries will ratify it, and it's not really logical to stay in with a different set of rules. I'm not sure that changes much, because for the same reasons outline by Mr A, I think there's a mood out they to tell them to stick it, and we'll default on all the ecb debt and peg to sterling. I'm don't necessarily agree with the rationale there either. I just hope there's a proper debate so I can make up my mind with some confidence.

[culloty82]

I'm not sure how I'll vote. The mood music has already started to suggest it's effectively a referendum on staying in the eurozone, given that the other countries will ratify it, and it's not really logical to stay in with a different set of rules. I'm not sure that changes much, because for the same reasons outline by Mr A, I think there's a mood out they to tell them to stick it, and we'll default on all the ecb debt and peg to sterling. I'm don't necessarily agree with the rationale there either. I just hope there's a proper debate so I can make up my mind with some confidence.

Well, it appears Enda has made the eurozone membership quote to the Wall Street Journal - even implying that EU membership is at stake, which is patently false, given the UK and Czechs have opted out, and France's Socialist candidate, Francois Hollande also has his doubts. In any case, I'd agree with Macy that stressing the euro is hardly a vote-getter.

[legendz]

I'm pro-Euro but this is nothing to do with the Euro currency. There are 8 non-Euro countries in this agreement. This is a question of whether we want to be part of the agreement or not also.

Below is where I was coming from.

There's also an assessment by Cliff Taylor here: http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/C...5-91b778500710

In general, I think that being in a single currency , it's a good idea to have a set of rules that make it less likely that one member can go bananas (like the Greeks did pretty stylishly) and take everyone down with them. But I'm not sure these rules will really do that.

[mypost]

The Sunday Business Post has a list of 5 essential things you need to know about the treaty here: http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/H...f-c58021195434

We'll see how those essentials apply to France and Germany, when it's their turn to be outside the budgetary limits. Didn't exactly help much the last time.

I don't think there's a big problem with the idea of stricter budget controls, unfortunately the reality on the ground is that some countries are so far out of kilter with the existing rules, that agreements like this could put them in a permanent straitjacket. Ireland is the worst Eurozone country after Greece, so we can't cope with those rules and the deeper austerity measures they will lead to.

[Lim till i die]

The Sunday Business Post has a list of 5 essential things you need to know about the treaty here: http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/H...f-c58021195434

For those who can't be bothered reading FIVE whole things I've narrowed it down to two:

If you vote NO - ATM machines will leap out of the walls and run down the road screaming. Old people and puppies will die in ditches.

If you vote YES - Your aborted children will be conscripted to fight in the European Army.

[born2bwild]

You were overpaid. I'm overpaid. We're all overpaid, and borrowing is a good chunk of how that's come to be. We're going to have to accept that fact and adjust.

You shouldn't accept it, although, to be honest, all that I'm doing is complaining and accepting it.

Listen to me complain:

Borrowing by ordinary people wasn't at the core of what made this mess: Nosiree, it was stealing and stupidity.

Stealing:
At the height of the boom the biggest earners paid a maximum tax rate of 12.5% while the likes of us paid 20% on a good day.

That was and it still is stealing. Of course, the shibboleth of saying 'our' corporate tax rate makes 'us' 'competitive' was and still is the standard lie thrown around to bewilder and terrify the proles.

Stupidity:
We had a tax base that was idiotic - taxes on property transactions made the Celtic Tiger phase 2 (2001-06). When the arse fell out of the market the tax take evaporated. Then the Fianna Fail had to go borrowing.

Stealing:
When it turned out that no-one would lend them money anymore because the banks' liabilities were about to drag the whole country under, FF, supported by every mainstream party in the country decided to guarantee those liabilities. This stealing is stealing from our children and their children.

We have a referendum on whether to sign up to fiscal regulations designed by the ruling elites to serve their interests, not mine.

If they want my vote then I want at least the return of my 600eu.

There are alternatives to complaining about this on a football forum. But I'm too tired after working 2 people's jobs to seize control of the relations and means of production and turn them to the service of the rights of ordinary working people, and besides, I'm off to Tolka to do some stewarding.

[born2bwild]

For those who can't be bothered reading FIVE whole things I've narrowed it down to two:

If you vote NO - ATM machines will leap out of the walls and run down the road screaming. Old people and puppies will die in ditches.

If you vote YES - Your aborted children will be conscripted to fight in the European Army.

Robofoetuses stalking the battlefields of the 21st Century shooting jets of molten placenta into the massed ranks of the infidel hordes - good way of dealing with Shamrock Rovers' scum element, too.