Referendum to be held on European fiscal compact

[Mr A]

Confirmed: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking41.html

Here we go again.. abortion, Euro Army etc, etc, etc.

[John83]

Ugh. The only thing I look forward to less than the no campaign is the yes campaign.

[Mr A]

Indeed. The debate around these referenda rarely gets closer than nodding terms with the actual issues involved.

On that note, here is the actual treaty . Only 11 pages long, but pretty heavy going.

An explanation here seems to sum it up pretty well from what I read: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking46.html

[mypost]

Leo Varadkar will be distraught, as we only have these things to "amend the constitution" in his eyes.

Have to say I'm very surprised. No requirement for one was cited as a reason for it, but it should be held "on balance" instead.

It will come into effect once 12 EU countries provinces ratify it.

[Spudulika]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...breaking1.html

Here we go. The government will ramrod this up the rears of the citizens. If the Irish are going to stand up for a change, it has to be now. I read the treaty (thanks Mr. A) this morning and while it's dry stuff, there are some very worrying points.

We can rat out another country who isn't behaving - and then what? Be penalised? Christ sake. It seems the EU is being run like the LOI, we'll have countries docked points in the Eurovision next. No, this treaty just doesn't make sense. We have to clear up our own house before letting others run riot. I'm a supporter of the EU and all it offers and has done, but this, I'm hearing Ciaran Fitzgerald in my head!

edit: It won't matter what we do as once 12 do as they're told, we're all in.

[mypost]

Eh not quite. We'll be in the slow lane with the Brits, while the rest get on with whipping each other into German-oriented fiscal order. Two-Speed Europe by the back door.

But we won't be, because the people will obey the government and Vote Yes for those non-existent jobs they were promised two years ago. Which still haven't turned up.

Again...

[culloty82]

Regardless of individual stances on the EU, I don't see how this treaty would address the economic situation - whether it be the US under FDR, or Germany post-WW2, the most effective solutions to recessions have be government-backed stimulus packages, concentration on R&D, and indeed, the strategic investment banks that we never got after the last election. Deflating economies by tying Europe into an austerity straight-jacket makes little logical sense, and as for the argument that a No vote would see us shut out of the ESM, the implications of such an action by the ECB would further destabilise Spain and Italy, while the UK and US would hardly allow a strategic trading partner to be starved of investment, so the IMF would take up the whole slack.

[pineapple stu]

Deflating economies by tying Europe into an austerity straight-jacket makes little logical sense

What's the alternative to austerity? The Government, as far as I can see, is still trying to attract investment even under the current programme.

If you're struggling under credit card debt, is the solution to go out and get another credit card? Or is it to take your oil, scrimp for however long it takes to get back on sound financial footing and hope you've learned your lesson? And if that means we're in recession for a generation, then that's unfortunate - we've made our bed and can now lie in it. But any alternative seems to be kicking the can down the road. [/cliche mode]

I'm in a quandary on this; on the one hand, I've never voted for an EU referendum, but on the other hand, if this is basically a referendum on austerity, it makes sense.

[Charlie Darwin]

edit: It won't matter what we do as once 12 do as they're told, we're all in.

No. If we don't ratify it, we're out. If 12 ratify it, 12 are in.

Regardless of individual stances on the EU, I don't see how this treaty would address the economic situation - whether it be the US under FDR, or Germany post-WW2, the most effective solutions to recessions have be government-backed stimulus packages, concentration on R&D, and indeed, the strategic investment banks that we never got after the last election. Deflating economies by tying Europe into an austerity straight-jacket makes little logical sense, and as for the argument that a No vote would see us shut out of the ESM, the implications of such an action by the ECB would further destabilise Spain and Italy, while the UK and US would hardly allow a strategic trading partner to be starved of investment, so the IMF would take up the whole slack.

It's not supposed to address the economic situation, it's supposed to prevent it happening again. It won't prevent it happening again either, but European leaders like to appear proactive.

What's the alternative to austerity? The Government, as far as I can see, is still trying to attract investment even under the current programme.

If you're struggling under credit card debt, is the solution to go out and get another credit card? Or is it to take your oil, scrimp for however long it takes to get back on sound financial footing and hope you've learned your lesson? And if that means we're in recession for a generation, then that's unfortunate - we've made our bed and can now lie in it. But any alternative seems to be kicking the can down the road. [/cliche mode]

I'm in a quandary on this; on the one hand, I've never voted for an EU referendum, but on the other hand, if this is basically a referendum on austerity, it makes sense.

We'll have austerity with or without the compact. The question is whether we want EU-approved austerity that involves repaying private investors while ignoring severe structural problems and preserving privelege, or if we want IMF-approved austerity which will be swifter and more brutal considering we've frittered away billions to bondholders, but at least would address the problems with our economy.

[dahamsta]

I'll be voting against, and I won't even read it. I'll vote against anything pro-EU for the foreseeable future. I'm pro-Europe, but I've had enough of the power-hungry ahabs that are in charge right now. They can stuff it, I'd prefer to default and take my chances. It's been done before by countries both smaller and bigger than us, it can be done again.

[bennocelt]

Fair dues to FG for at least giving the people a say. Even the Greeks with all their rioting didnt achieve that!

[Charlie Darwin]

Well it's not Fine Gael, it's the Attorney General.

[bennocelt]

Well it's not Fine Gael, it's the Attorney General.

Yeah. But still a shock - too used to the FF dark days for surprises like this

[Spudulika]

Mypost has a point, and this is something I really questioned back when they made us vote again the last time. I came home for it and everything was "we don't vote yes, we're out of Europe, we lose jobs, we won't get any money, we're gone." No, they're scaring with - if it's No then it's a general election. Good, get FG and Labour out, smash the parties and then let the EU/IMF/ECB appoint their buddies to asset strip us, at leas we'll be able to hoenstly blame the pesky foreigners.

[born2bwild]

Since 2008 my take home pay has gone down 600eu pm. They can stick their austerity up their holes. I didn't run up their bills. And, while I welcome being controlled by the Germans more than I do by Gombeen men from the arse end of Mayo I trust none of them. Unless there's something substantial on the table for me and my family they can take this treaty and feck off.

[mypost]

Mypost has a point, and this is something I really questioned back when they made us vote again the last time. I came home for it and everything was "we don't vote yes, we're out of Europe, we lose jobs, we won't get any money, we're gone." No, they're scaring with - if it's No then it's a general election. Good, get FG and Labour out, smash the parties and then let the EU/IMF/ECB appoint their buddies to asset strip us, at leas we'll be able to hoenstly blame the pesky foreigners.

There's no chance of a general election regardless of the outcome. The government is strong and stable with a massive majority. It will take a bit more than an EU-ref defeat to bring it down.

Since the last EU ref, we've had 3 very harsh domestic budgets, priced out of the markets, punted into the IMF, refused debt federalisation and burden-sharing, a domestic economy stagnate, and hundreds of thousands emigrating.

So what was the point of voting yes then or now?

Since 2008 my take home pay has gone down 600eu pm. They can stick their austerity up their holes. I didn't run up their bills. And, while I welcome being controlled by the Germans more than I do by Gombeen men from the arse end of Mayo I trust none of them. Unless there's something substantial on the table for me and my family they can take this treaty and feck off.

What should be on the table?

[Macy]

Mypost has a point, and this is something I really questioned back when they made us vote again the last time. I came home for it and everything was "we don't vote yes, we're out of Europe, we lose jobs, we won't get any money, we're gone." No, they're scaring with - if it's No then it's a general election. Good, get FG and Labour out, smash the parties and then let the EU/IMF/ECB appoint their buddies to asset strip us, at leas we'll be able to hoenstly blame the pesky foreigners.

eh, the people could always have voted no a second time! Both sides use scaremongering. The yes side will use the threat of being kicked out of the euro and/or no possible second bailout. The no side will use things like 100 years of austerity, tax harmonisation etc (never mind conscription/ abortion). Both are equally culpable, and it basically boils down to too many of the electorate buying this crap.

But we won't be, because the people will obey the government and Vote Yes for those non-existent jobs they were promised two years ago. Which still haven't turned up.

Or maybe a majority just agreed with the treaty rather than just deciding to obey the Government.

On this whole being asked twice thing, would people prefer that we were stuck in the dark ages regarding divorce, if the first defeated referendum has been allowed to stand? Or is it just because the second Nice and Lisbon referenda didn't give the answer you wanted?

Personally I haven't decided how I'll vote. I'm probably leaning more towards a No as things stand. However, I could probably be brought to some degree with less onerous terms on our current bailout, especially the promissory notes (we'd have less to fear if we were on the hook for less).

[bennocelt]

Or maybe a majority just agreed with the treaty rather than just deciding to obey the Government.

Or is it just because the second Nice and Lisbon referenda didn't give the answer you wanted?
.

Well in hindsight (which was obvious) they were wrong. Still waiting for those jobs that the politicians conned the people with.

[Macy]

Well in hindsight (which was obvious) they were wrong. Still waiting for those jobs that the politicians conned the people with.

Assuming people actually believed that in the first place, and voted purely on that basis. Still, at least we can be comforted by knowing that the no side were right about tax harmonisation, self amending treaty, conscription to an EU army and abortions, eh? Both sides are as bad as each other when it comes to trying to convince the gullible.

[bennocelt]

Assuming people actually believed that in the first place, and voted purely on that basis. Still, at least we can be comforted by knowing that the no side were right about tax harmonisation, self amending treaty, conscription to an EU army and abortions, eh? Both sides are as bad as each other when it comes to trying to convince the gullible.

Yeah cause that's what all the no side were on about, seriously,tsk. Proof is in the state of the country at the moment and the day when the Euro goes balls up. How is Iceland doing at the moment, a default hasnt sunk that country yet?