Wishful thinking of a Second Division

[legendz]

I've made mention of my wishful thinking of a Second Division, so I'll elaborate a bit here on it.

I believe a Second Division of:
GUST
Cobh
Carlow
Tralee
Castlebar
Tullamore

I believe it this was given a chance and the 6 clubs wanted it to happen, that the league could get off the ground. 6 clubs is not ideal but U19 south league has set a standard. Someone might explain how budget for such a division would be much different to the A Championship? In terms of travel costs, it's manageable?

If such a division was given a chance, rivalries would build up between the clubs to win the division and get a shot at a promotion/relegation play-off to join the First Division.

The hope would be it the division was successful to a degree and able to stand on it's own feet that more clubs might be inclined to join e.g. Fanad, Kilkenny or PortLaoise etc.

Surely the way to develop the game is to have clubs playing at national level at some level and these clubs being the focal point of the development of the game within their area.

[Eminence Grise]

The travel is probably reasonable. Carlow/Cobh to Castlebar are the greatest treks. Would you play four rounds of matches? Monotony might be a problem, as might trying to finance a team on just ten home games. I wonder whether there is any room for a cup competition between the first division and your proposed second. Two groups of 7 - 4 from the first and 3 from the second, maybe regionalised if possible; each team plays every other team once, so that's three home and three away games; top two qualify for the semi-final. Apart from the home gates, it would give the second division a chance to measure their progress against four first division teams competitively.

It's all academic for now, but if there's enough discussion and the clubs want it ... who knows what might happen.

[kerrysock]

A six team meaningless league? Honestly like what is the point!
I get the feeling we are "clutching at straws" here ...

Where would the sponsorship come from? - especially when the league most probably won't be backed by the FAI

[legendz]

The travel is probably reasonable. Carlow/Cobh to Castlebar are the greatest treks. Would you play four rounds of matches? Monotony might be a problem, as might trying to finance a team on just ten home games. I wonder whether there is any room for a cup competition between the first division and your proposed second. Two groups of 7 - 4 from the first and 3 from the second, maybe regionalised if possible; each team plays every other team once, so that's three home and three away games; top two qualify for the semi-final. Apart from the home gates, it would give the second division a chance to measure their progress against four first division teams competitively.

It's all academic for now, but if there's enough discussion and the clubs want it ... who knows what might happen.

Thanks for being willing to discuss it at least.


I can only hold up the U19 south league division of 6 as an example. Monotony could be a problem but it's better than on games or division at all. The First division has to put up with 4 rounds. If it's the only option and more teams aren't there, it's hard to complain.


A cup has merit but will have a decent prize. The mentioned proposed wishful thinking of a second division would have the carrot for the winner of getting a shot at the first division through a relegation/promotion play-off.


Alas it is academic and wishful thinking right now but hopefully a discussion can take place between clubs and the FAI to make it happen.

[legendz]

A six team meaningless league? Honestly like what is the point!
I get the feeling we are "clutching at straws" here ...

Where would the sponsorship come from? - especially when the league most probably won't be backed by the FAI

In fairness kerrysock, how the **** would it be meaningless? The prize for winning would be a promotion/relegation play-off to join the first division.


If it was entering the last 5 games of the season and Dynamos were battling with Carlow and Cobh to win the division. Would you not go to the game. If Dynamos were so win such a division and get a shot against SD Galway in a promotion/relegation play-off, would you not go to such a game??


The point of this, while clutching at straws, is to discuss the merit in having a third tier division allowing clubs a route into LoI football while not being heavily restricted with licencing. If Cobh, Tralee and more clubs aren't ready for the first division, the only solution is for these clubs to play in a third tier and progress from there both on and off the park.


Regards sponsorship etc., that's a good point. I don't doubt these obstacles at all but it's the very reason for clubs to discuss and explore the options and possibilities, working to see if there is a solution.

[kerrysock]

In fairness kerrysock, how the **** would it be meaningless? The prize for winning would be a promotion/relegation play-off to join the first division.

I wasn't clear enough in my last post. I feel the third tier would be meaningless as the FAI will not back it i.e. the winner will not get a chance for a promotion/relegation play-off. The point being I think a club only backed third tier would be pointless.

It is clear that the FAI have not considered the a-championship successful enough i.e. they have got rid of it altogether. So I don't think the FAI will back a 3rd tier in the near future or a 3rd tier backed by clubs only for that matter.

[kerrysock]

By the way, in my view the most natural progression for clubs to become senior clubs as part of the LOI would be to come from the intermediate leagues. But with the current climate in this country, I feel that the FAI rightfully will close ranks for a while and only allow clubs that are financially well backed to compete in the LOI. With the current state of existing teams that scraped through the licensing process, it wouldnt surprise me to see a one division 14-15 team tier in another year or two.

This thread is discussing how the LOI could expand to a third tier. In my view if anything there is a better chance of a contraction in the LOI and a single division structure. Plain economics says it is going that way...sadly!

[gufc2000]

I admire your optimism legendz, but come on a 6 team league? 8 teams is ridiculous for the First Division this year, we've complained that 10 teams before have lead to monotony, so 6 would be farcical. Its looking increasingly likely that there maybe a 16 team league next year. The only hope for teams like GUST, Carlow & Cobh etc. is that there are regional leagues below this and have them feeding into the Premier Division.

12-16 team Premier League

---------------------

10-12 team First Division

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Munster/Leinster/Connacht/Ulster Senior Leagues (could have a few divisions here, especially in Munster & Leinster where you could have promotion and relegation)

---------------------

The District Leagues.


While I'd like to think a national First Division could exist, I just don't think the FAI want it.

[legendz]

I've always said it would be far from ideal but something is better than nothing. U19 south league has gone ok with 6 clubs, so it's sets a prededent of sorts.


One reason I'm banging on about this third tier is that the senior and district leagues are played over a different season.

[kerrysock]

I've always said it would be far from ideal but something is better than nothing. U19 south league has gone ok with 6 clubs, so it's sets a prededent of sorts.


One reason I'm banging on about this third tier is that the senior and district leagues are played over a different season.

You can bang on about a third tier all you want, gufc2000 is right! - the FAI dont want a third tier and if anything, we will simply have a single premier division next year.

Legendz, will Dynamos go back into the KDL now or will they re-try their hand in the Munster Senior League? Surely the club will do something? The club cannot stay in oblivion for a few years surely...

[peadar1987]

I think a single division would be a disaster in terms of crowds. There'd be no interest for 75% of the teams after the first round of games. There needs to be the threat of relegation to keep the interest alive for teams outside of the top few.

I think a proper regionalised league as an intermediate level would work quite well, although as legendz says, it would have to address the issue of the separate calendars. Ideally, it would have fairly lax licensing, so clubs with no further ambitions would be able to enter and play with changing rooms and a clubhouse, but still provide a decent season, limited travel, and a chance to grow a fanbase for clubs looking to develop these things for an eventual crack at the league proper

[legendz]

You can bang on about a third tier all you want, gufc2000 is right! - the FAI dont want a third tier and if anything, we will simply have a single premier division next year.

Legendz, will Dynamos go back into the KDL now or will they re-try their hand in the Munster Senior League? Surely the club will do something? The club cannot stay in oblivion for a few years surely...

Just because the FAI might not want it, it doesn't mean clubs can't push to keep in on the agenda. Especially by clubs looking to join in the future.

Mervue, Salthill, Tullamore, Castlebar, Tralee, Carlow, Cobh and Fanad are all teams who've played in the A Championship between '08 and '11. If a third tier remained in existence, in the next four years there'd be the potential for more clubs to join.
While I accept talk of the third tier is wisful thinking at this time, I don't accept it's impossible and as I've said, it should remain on the agenda to look for a solution.

[legendz]

I think a single division would be a disaster in terms of crowds. There'd be no interest for 75% of the teams after the first round of games. There needs to be the threat of relegation to keep the interest alive for teams outside of the top few.

I think a proper regionalised league as an intermediate level would work quite well, although as legendz says, it would have to address the issue of the separate calendars. Ideally, it would have fairly lax licensing, so clubs with no further ambitions would be able to enter and play with changing rooms and a clubhouse, but still provide a decent season, limited travel, and a chance to grow a fanbase for clubs looking to develop these things for an eventual crack at the league proper

The one problem I see is that I can only name about 6 or 7 clubs at the moment who would take in a regionalised intermediate tier. For that reason, I've suggested a national third tier as the majority of the clubs could cope with that.


Clubs at the very least should lobby the FAI and try to put it on the agenda to try to find a solution. If teams are looking to join the league proper, they should be able to get their structure right within a national division. If they can survive financially, they'll get on ok, if not, they'll simply have to remain where they are or get involved in the senior leagues.

[Eminence Grise]

If, as looks possible according to the rumour mill, there is a move to a 16 team premier in the next few seasons, that would leave four teams cut adrift. What would they do? Drift into local football? What a slap in the face that would be to all the fans who worked hard to keep their team in league football. Dumped because they were the last four out of 20 – and while the likeliest candidates (Salthill, Mervue, Wexford) aren’t long in the league, who would join them? Going on the last few years, Longford? Athlone? Finn Harps? Maybe two of these, if Salthill succeed in becoming Galway's No.1 team (of Delaney supporters).

If there was a third tier now, however weak or insubstantial on paper, there would be six teams with an organisational perspective above local/regional leagues with whom the four 'orphans' could form a second division, or, if a16 team league never happens, aim to increase numbers in the first division, which, after all is said and done, has only two teams more than the unviable, imaginary six-team third tier. For a multitude of reasons, the A-Championship never took off properly, but it did achieve one aim – getting teams into the league proper.

If the FAI isn’t going to show leadership and provide teams with an opportunity to show they can make the step up to league football, the history of the league in recent years suggests that we’ll go on haemorrhaging clubs until there aren’t enough left to form a proper league anyway, or even a proper single division (which, as Peadar says, would be disastrous anyway). Like Legendz, I think it’s up to ambitious clubs, who can reach the required standards on and off the pitch, to keep banging on the FAI’s door until somebody lets them in.

[peadar1987]

The one problem I see is that I can only name about 6 or 7 clubs at the moment who would take in a regionalised intermediate tier. For that reason, I've suggested a national third tier as the majority of the clubs could cope with that.


Clubs at the very least should lobby the FAI and try to put it on the agenda to try to find a solution. If teams are looking to join the league proper, they should be able to get their structure right within a national division. If they can survive financially, they'll get on ok, if not, they'll simply have to remain where they are or get involved in the senior leagues.

I think if the licensing was relaxed in terms of necessary facilities, and sponsorship was brought in, a lot of junior clubs could be brought on board as well. So in Munster, for example, you'd have teams like Tralee, Cobh, and perhaps a Clare or Tipperary team looking to make the step up to LOI level, but there's no reason why clubs with no such ambitions, like for example Pike Rovers, or UCC, couldn't simply join it as a league in its own right. I think if it's pitched right, and the licensing done well, there's no reason it couldn't attract enough teams for four ten-team provincial intermediate leagues.

As things stand, if a team wishes to join even the lowest level of the LOI, they have to go from playing at the other end of the county, at worst, to facing six-hour drives to Ballybofey and Wexford. Obviously the aim for most clubs will be to be playing at a national level against the likes of Shamrock Rovers and Bray, but there is no reason why they have to make that step up in one go.

There's also the issue of clubs going in the other direction. If you're refused a division 1 license for whatever reason, a regionalised intermediate division with reduced travel and overhead costs is a safety net, in a situation when dropping back to pure local football could be terminal for the club, yet playing a nationwide campaign with more stringent licensing requirements prohibitively expensive.

[legendz]

I like what you're proposing and back it 100% but I can't see it getting off the ground I'm afraid. I know people in Clare, Tipperary and UCC. I know you've only given them as examples but they're not going to provide teams. Before starting this discussion on a third tier I considered that. There's a better chance of 6 clubs competing in a national division than 40 or even 24 clubs spread across 4 regions of 10 or even 6 clubs in each region.


I do as I say support the idea and would love if it did take off.

[citybone]

I like what you're proposing and back it 100% but I can't see it getting off the ground I'm afraid. I know people in Clare, Tipperary and UCC. I know you've only given them as examples but they're not going to provide teams. Before starting this discussion on a third tier I considered that. There's a better chance of 6 clubs competing in a national division than 40 or even 24 clubs spread across 4 regions of 10 or even 6 clubs in each region.


I do as I say support the idea and would love if it did take off.

Leinster Senior League is already set up
Munster Senior league just needs non Cork Clubs to join to make it a proper provincial league
We are half way there at this stage
Ulster senior League needs Cavan and Monaghan clubs to join
Connacht senior League was there before. If Salthill and Mervue drop back down it should not be a problem with the likes of Castlebar, NUIG, IT Sligo, and a few more.

[legendz]

Leinster Senior League is already set up
Munster Senior league just needs non Cork Clubs to join to make it a proper provincial league
We are half way there at this stage
Ulster senior League needs Cavan and Monaghan clubs to join
Connacht senior League was there before. If Salthill and Mervue drop back down it should not be a problem with the likes of Castlebar, NUIG, IT Sligo, and a few more.

That's fair enough but what about them being run on a different season? Can the senior leagues be switched to a calendar year season while district leagues remain as they are?

[Shannonsider]

For this season alone, a good idea in my opinion, but seems pointless having it in the long-term. There should be some sort of way for clubs to get into the First Division on a yearly basis. Don't think the A championship worked the way the FAI had hoped. Only really Salthill have come through from that.

A 16 team Premier is a must I think.

Then a 10 team First Division.

Other than that, there isn't enough clubs to have a third tier in a country of over 4 and a half million and about a third of that population in 1 urban setting which already has 5 clubs at LOI level.

The likes of Castlebar and Portlaise will end up like Cobh or Kilkenny in my opinion. They might have a few years success in the league but then either go bust or pull out for financial reasons. Good idea but maybe just for one season to give maybe Galway United, Cobh, Tralee, Kilkenny, Kildare etc a chance to re-enter the league if they wanted.

But there is no point adding clubs for the sake of it. Need sustainable clubs in areas which will get support. I mean putting in another 2 Galway clubs when Galway United were struggling was a disgrace. Putting in Fanad when Finn Harps were struggling and trying to get the support of Donegal was a joke.

[citybone]

That's fair enough but what about them being run on a different season? Can the senior leagues be switched to a calendar year season while district leagues remain as they are?

They could start their season earlier than junior leagues and finish before junior leagues giving any champions a very short off season before joining the senior league and any junior league team coming up a very short off season while coming up. Teams going down would have a long off season. instead of a summer of winter season you could call it a Autumn season. A half way. This would mean that these clubs would be out of seasons in the second round of the FAI cup.