QuoteSame. I saw DK's pic on RTÉ today and got angry.Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
My main frustration with Murray is that he ends up at the bottom of too many rucks after trying to run through gaps that aren't really there. It's hard to get consistently quick ball when forwards are passing the ball from a third of the rucks.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Same. I saw DK's pic on RTÉ today and got angry.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Thats probably a fair observation, but given his lack of games at international level - I think decision making is something he will get better at. No doubt he was overshadowed by his opposite number on Sunday but going forward I thought he was great - and made some good breaks (few bad as well).
Our problem Sunday was not getting on top of them physically - Wales in fact got parity with us at scrumtime and at the breakdown and in fact held on to the ball much better,while we more often than not kicked the ball away - sometimes fairly aimlessly. It is a source of frustration that we seem to have the players capable of winning these matches but we are regualarly out-thought by our opponents.
My main bone of contension is with the bitterness and gnarlyness that seems to disappear whenever our backs don't seem to be against the wall. This Welsh team hammered us in October and our lads should have been ripping out of the jersey's to get at them. What happens then is almost insipid. I mean would any of the provinces playing at home have given up 2 scores and the match in the last few minutes of a big game ?
Our lack of a seven is killing us as well -stating the obvious but as regards our back row, whatever we gain in ball carriers we lose when it comes to the breakdown when we don't have the ball.
Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 07/02/2012 at 7:00 AM.
Not a big rugby fan but those last few minutes in the Leinster game today were amazing. A finger nail from properly placing the ball behind the line and they were out and being able to withstand that pressure.. O'Driscoll is such a class player
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
Two teams in the final, after 3 in the quarters. Says an awful lot about the national team management imo.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Thriller of a game alright.
I'm not sure what Macy's point is. Is it that if our clubs can be so dominant how come the national team fails to punch its weight? It's a fair question.
Pretty much. But not only in terms of performance, but in terms of team and especially squad make up. You look at the performances of Ulster and bang your head against the wall to be honest - more chance of getting picked being a bench player for Munster than being a starter for Ulster.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I gather there's a similar set of criticisms aimed at Kidney than are often aimed at Trap. Overly dogmatic approach to tactics, unimaginative selections etc.
On que, the IRFU (presumably at the behest of the management) have just extended Gordon Darcy's central contract for another 2 years. Whilst he's playing well for Leinster, he hasn't played that well for Ireland for a few years, and even at Leinster will be coming under increasing pressure. So the last few months, Leamy, O'Callaghan and Darcy have all had central contracts renewed while they either aren't provincial starters now (in the case of the munster lads) or can't be considered guaranteed staters for the next 2 years. Meanwhile, they're peeing around a mid 20's player, albeit recovering from a poor/ injury hit spell, who's already toured with the lions?
It's worse than Trap, as we know that many that Kidney overlooks are playing at a very high level, consistently.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Not that well up on these things, but will Fitzgerald have to play for an Irish province to be considered for the International team. I know Murphy plays for Leicester and is still around the squad
Always look on the bright side of life
No, he doesn't have to play for an Irish province to be considered for selection, same as Tommy Bowe and Geordan Murphy. Fitzgerald doesn't want to leave though, it's just a case of his agent and the IRFU coming to an agreement. I'm glad D'Arcy has signed back up, I've always felt he gets harshly criticised. I'd bet he's taken a wage cut since his last contract.
From an Ireland perspective, there was much to be encouraged by this weekend- especially from Ulster. An all-Irish front row laying waste to their opposition in a European cup semi final has to be good, and Jackson and Gilroy look like great prospects and will surely benefit from their experiences this year. Cave looks a decent prospect as well.
Leinster should really win it now, they're a superb side. Hard to see where Ulster can beat them, but you never know.
#NeverStopNotGivingUp
1 of the best games of rugby I've ever seen. Some of the hits were frightening.
"If God had meant football to be played in the air, he'd have put grass in the sky." Brian Clough.
You'll NEVER beat the Irish.......you'll just draw with us instead!!!
He doesn't have to, but experience suggests it's a significant advantage, with examples of players dropping totally off the international radar when they've moved abroad. Murphy would have many more caps if he'd been Irish based imo.
And btw I wouldn't suggest that Darcy leave Leinster, just question the central contract, and it's length. The Fitzgerald situation also highlights another thing - Leinster can't negotiate directly whilst the IRFU is involved, so even though they want to keep him, at the moment they can't (officially) get involved or make their own offer.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Does anyone know how the economics of provincial rugby work?
I'd like to get a handle on how this compares to England, Wales and France (I'm ignoring Scotland and Italy!). I know for example that the RFU distributes £110m to its clubs annually, so English clubs get a sizeable central subsidy too. Do they have also have centrally contracted players?
So, in Ireland (these are mainly questions rather than statements):
- Central contracts for X number of players. This presumbaly then frees up revenue generated directly by the province from commercial income to be spent on high quality imports or local players not centrally contracted.
- Is an additional portion of national team revenue distributed to provinces?
- No promotion / relegation - this gives provinces some breathing space and allows for financial planning
- Automatic qualification for Europe (for top 2 or 3 provinces anyway?) - this means the clubs can budget for European income, whereas English clubs have to see this as a commercial risk (a la football)
- This potentially polarises strength between European regulars and European aspirants and European no hopers.
- Are there wage caps in Ireland?
- Irish players get a tax break if they spend their whole careers in Ireland I think
- How are H-Cup revenues allocated?
- How does H-Cup revenue compare to Amlin Cup?
- How does Rabobank league revenue compare to EPL revenue, and how is is distributed?
- Are AIL clubs compensated for developing players for the provincial sides?
- Are AIL clubs happy with the current professional set up?
- How do the provincial catchment areas compare to England, Wales and France, in terms of both potential talent pools and supporter base (and hence potential attendances)?
- What is the key difference explaining Ireland's success and Wales' provincial "failure" despite the playing talent pool being broadly comparable (Wales are better based on results at national level though I suspect there's a degree of Gatland v Kidney explaining this)? I suspect the answer lies in national association / franchise relationship (central contracts etc.).
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 30/04/2012 at 1:11 PM.
I'll attempt to answer some...
- England doesn't have a central contract system (niether do Wales or France). In England, there's an elite squad, with clubs compensated for releasing players to the national team.
- I don't think the idea of central contracts is to free up provincial money - it's to give central control over the players in terms of release and game management.
- The points about automatic, guaranteed, qualification for europe and no promotion or relegation is certainly the stock excuses used by English clubs when they're compared to the Provinces. I'm not sure how it stacks up though really - the 3 automatic irish qualifiers would qualify every year anyway if the places were distributed to the rabo rather than countries, and connacht would this year as well.
- The tax break is best 10 years over their career, so there is scope for players to go and come back. I'm not sure how, or if, it applies to Ulster players.
- afaik the IRFU sets the budgets. So while there isn't a wage cap, my understanding is that if anything the provinces work with less budget than the english wage cap, but I'm not sure whether that includes centrally contracted players.
- The money is better from the English Premiership, than the Rabo.
- HEC is where the money is at, rather than the Amlin. And in many ways the Amlin as a way into the HEC is the main prize.
- Player and supporter pool is bigger in England and France.
- Most players are in the academy system from 15 or 16. The main area of contention in Leinster is between the Leinster Academy and the Rugby Schools. The academy wants to start player management and development at that stage, whereas the schools priority is the schools cup. I think this could see players coming from the none traditional schools having some advantage.
- AIL clubs have definitely lost out. There's been a lot more talk of releasing more players back to clubs from provinces recently actually.
- Although Wales have a provincial structure now, they each independent rather than under the WRFU - they're more like franchises really. There's no central contracts. I don't know enough, but the talk is that the welsh fans and players have never really brought into the provinces, and it's all about the national team. The Irish provinces are obviously traditional both geographically and in rugby terms, even if they're effectively clubs now. (I actually think there's a lesson in Welsh rugby for those that promote a franchise system for domestic football here). The Irish National Team Management have far more access and control than their welsh equivalents over the players, and should actually have the advantage!
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Heineken Cup money is paid to the IRFU and that goes towards the money that they give to the provinces. Provinces keep the gate money from their group games and home quarter finals.
Irish provinces would have a population bases of the same order as big English and French teams. For example Leicestershire has a population of about 1 million, Northamptonshire about 700k, Auvergne (Clermont) 1.3 million, Midi Pyrenees (Toulouse) 2.3 million. Leinster has 2.5 million, Ulster 2.1 million (which surprised me!), Munster just over 1 million and Connacht just over half a million. Leinster's population would include plenty who support Munster, both immigrants and Lunsters so the gap wouldn't be as big as it would appear.- How do the provincial catchment areas compare to England, Wales and France, in terms of both potential talent pools and supporter base (and hence potential attendances)?
In terms of player numbers, England are miles ahead of any other country in the world. Ireland has half as many players as France but spread over only 4 teams compared to 14 in France (more if you include the pro second division). Wales would have less again.
It doesn't apply to Ulster players AFAIK as their place of work is in the North.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
I wasn't sure whether there was ways around it, especially for centrally contracted players who might be paid directly by the union in Dublin, and may have a main place of residence (for example) in Monaghan.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I don't think so but I could be wrong.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Many of the top players in the provincial teams are foreigners. Also there are also only 4 Irish teams (provinces) while in the English/French leagues there are many club teams so the talent is spread. We're not really comparing like with like.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
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