Awesome stuff re Crowley, but there's been a lot of false dawns on that front, has there? If I remember correctly, he was left out of a couple of England under 19 squads and I'm sure he would have been good enough. The delay would be explained by the 3-6 month time it takes for FIFA to process a switch.
I was gonna say it's consolation for the blow of potentially losing another young, English-born prospect. However, am I correct in saying that Crowley could be a more important player for us than his counterpart and has more potential? As far as I know, Crowley is a more central attacking midfielder, whilst we are well stocked with wingers at present (and Robbie Brady might move back there in the future). Hoolahan's career won't go on forever so Crowley could be a ready-made replacement.
Furthermore, it would demonstrate a serious amount of conviction by Crowley if he committed to us (which he would, in effect, be doing) at the age of 18. SkStu, he has played competitively for England so once he entered the field for us then he's tied.
It's great to be able to discuss someone like freely this without being shot down immediately... Hope and optimism aren't such negative things anymore.
He played for Ireland U17s in 2013 - http://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/u17-h...o-face-croatia - so if he does switch associations again will he be tied to Ireland, regardless of whether or not he plays a competitive game?
I'm on record saying that I think Grealish is going to be a clone of Steve McManaman. He'd be wasted on the wings.Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
This is my understanding of it. It's certainly the way the rules are written anyway.
Have I got the same interpretation as you lads here: He played his friendlies for us at under 17. He went and played competitively underage for England. His switch hasn't been used when going from Ireland to England because he didn't play competitively for Ireland in the first place. Now, when having played for England competitively he has to use his one switch to Ireland in order to play for us and he's tied to us then, even if he never plays a competitive minute?
I believe there was some confusion over this before, Bobby Zamora springs to mind. He played for England U-21, was named in a Trinidad squad but pulled out through injury, and went on to play for England seniors. The assumption being that if he was named in a Jamaican squad, he must have gone through the necessary paperwork. His wiki mentions that he got a passport but that doesn't mean he got clearance with FIFA.
Sorry Danny may have cleared this up way back when:
Last edited by Closed Account; 11/09/2015 at 11:15 AM.
Just seeing your post now, Joe. I was in the middle of composing a post which I now see regurgitates some of the info you've mentioned, but I'll just re-post what I've written for fluidity rather than go through it again deleting bits. We weren't able to clear it up though, unfortunately.
Definitely. He hasn't actually used his solitary switch yet because, as far as FIFA/UEFA are concerned, he has only represented England. That's because he has represented them in official FIFA/UEFA competition. Friendly appearances are not taken into account by FIFA/UEFA for the purposes of determining when a switch has been or can be utilised.
As Charlie says, the literal wording of the regulation would suggest that merely requesting the switch is what effects it, but there is doubt as to whether this is the case in practice: http://www.fifa.com/mm/Document/AFFe...EN_Neutral.pdf
When I'd emailed Yann, you might recall I asked him about what actually effects a switch, in his opinion. I wondered if it was the request alone or if it was the representing of a new association in a competitive fixture at any level (we know non-competitive fixtures have no bearing for eligibility purposes), as we in the eligibility thread were aware of the case of Bobby Zamora, where we believed Zamora had represented England competitively before requesting a switch to Trinidad & Tobago (and was seemingly all ready to play for them, according to media reports, until injury put a spanner in the works) and then returning to play for England (competitively) again. This was the information I got from Yann:
Just looking back at the email, here's what was said:
He was to look into it for confirmation with the head of the PSC and I did email him again a few weeks ago, but I don't think he had yet received any confirmation. Even though he is not aware of any players who have requested a switch, had it processed and then "switched" back, he doesn't appear to rule out the possibility in principle.Me: Also, what formally effects a player's solitary switch from one association to another? The regulations (if read literally; they say a player is permitted one request) would seem to suggest it is his request to switch that effects and finalises it, but is this the case in practice? My own feeling is that it is a competitive cap (after having been competitively capped by a previous association at a level other than full 'A') is what effects the switch. Bobby Zamora, for example, as far as I can make out from information in the public domain, played for England at under-21 (competitively, importantly) before requesting to switch to Trinidad & Tobago. His request was approved, as far as I can make out (http://web.archive.org/web/200908120...dad-passports/), and he was all ready to play for T&T with passport issued before injury saw him pull out. The FA of England later took interest in him again and he then represented England competitively at senior/full 'A' level. If he had already used up his one request to switch to T&T, how was he able to use another request to switch back to and represent England again? Unless it isn't the request itself that effects the switch, but, rather, the competitive capping?
Yann: I concur with you opinion – it is probably the first international appearance after the switch which ties definitely a player with its new association and not the request itself. It appears that Bobby Zamora never requested a change of association.
Me: What makes you say Zamora never requested a change? There are a few reports in the media explicitly stating his request was FIFA-approved and he was all set to play for T&T.
Yann: Zamora does not appear in the FIFA database I have access to.
Me: Is the database of players who have requested switches or is it of players who have effected switches? Is it possible Zamora might have requested a switch and had it granted but he is not on the database because he never effected it with a cap for T&T? Are you aware of any players who have requested a switch and had it granted, but who have then been accommodated with a "switch" back or cancellation of said request before representing their new association competitively?
Yann: The database contains the name of the player and the association requesting the change of allegiance and the name of the association he represented so far. Then, the database contains the date where the change has been approved/denied by the FIFA Player’s Status Committee. Article 8.3 is clear – the player is no longer deemed eligible until he has been cleared by FIFA. If Zamora had requested a change, he would have appeared in the database at some point. The only exception being (in my opinion) – if he only had played in friendlies, which is not the case. I am not aware of the case of players who have been allowed to switch back.
Me: We had thought of Zamora as somewhat of a "test case" proving that a simple request alone was not enough to effect the switch, thinking he'd requested a switch but was allowed to play for England again on the basis of not having effected it, but you say this is not so. Why do you think that playing in a competitive game is what effects a change then, even though this wouldn't be in line with a literal reading of the regulation concerned? Are you of the opinion then that a player might be permitted to return if he's not represented his new association competitively after having already had his request formally approved? Can an association losing a player hold up or stall a switch by any means, refusing to comply or dragging their heels until threatened with penalty?
Yann: This issue refers to the election a sporting nationality. This is done solely by entering the field in a competitive match (article 5.2). In my opinion (and it is solely my opinion), one must distinguish the substantive conditions (art. 8.1(a) or 8.2) to change national affiliation from the formal process to do so (art. 8.3). Being allowed to change national affiliation only once is a substantive condition, ie the player must not have undergone another switch before, and not a formal one. Thus, a player can be deemed tied to his new association and the process to switch association complete only if he meet the stipulation of article 5.2.
The former association could refuse to deliver relevant documents but it has no power to veto the change in association. The process will take a little bit longer.
Balls and times now saying that THE UNDECIDED ONE ...could still choose Ireland.
As for Dan Crowley. .just Fantastic news ...if true.
Jesus. ...after watching our performance against georgia on Monday. .....this has really cheered me up....please be true
Completely agree
I'm just so dillussioned with Mondays first half performance. ...I'll believe anything at the moment for emotional gain
It could quite simply boil down to players only being allowed to make one request to change nationality. Whether its accepted or denied of if he's goes onto play for that country or stay with his current one, his request is used up. Even it is accepted he can still stay with his current country, he is simply reset back to the default position he was in before he played for any country.
Dont forget we have this 'up and comer'
http://www.balls.ie/football/ireland...2312332/249780
Him, grealish and Crowley......Mmmmmm
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist thinks it will change; the realist adjusts the sails.
Hmm, possibly. I'm trying to think of reasons why that wouldn't or couldn't be the case. I may be overlooking something, but I'm thinking (and it's pure speculation) that that would have an unintended and disproportionately hampering effect on, say, a player with multiple nationalities (let's say this example/player has Irish, French and Spanish for sake of argument) who might have played with Ireland competitively at under-age level, before requesting to switch to France and having that switch processed, before then seeking to play for Spain instead, having never received any caps with France. If he was limited to one request in practice, it would prevent him from switching to Spain despite him never having played for France. Not saying you're wrong (and I do think your interpretation would seem to be in accordance with the text, or at least doesn't contradict it), but that would just seem rather unconscionable to me.
According to 8.3:
Not sure if it's instructive, but I take it to imply that players are registered with one association and can play for only that association in competitive fixtures. If they have submitted a request, they cannot play for anybody whilst that request is being processed. Once the request is processed, is it fair to assume the player would be eligible for only the association for whom he is now newly registered, or am I reading a meaning into the wording that isn't there?
You know what's great? The ever so knowledgeable world of Facebook are delighted that we've got the far better player.
Just a few select comments:
"Dan Crowley is twice the player Jack Grealish is"
"As a united agree with david he'd stop Grealish in his tracks great at tackling."
"Dan Crowley has immense potential! Will **** all over Grealish and that's a fact"
" This will cost him millions."
People are amazing.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Interesting
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...ciation_en.pdf
All of this should probably be in the other thread although it does specifically apply to Crowley based on speculation.
Last edited by Closed Account; 11/09/2015 at 2:27 PM.
Social media has destroyed my faith in humanity, it may have even destoyed humanity itself. Thankfully I rarely meet these types of people in real life, but it's shuddering to know they're out there. Ignorance was bliss.
We are pretty much guaranteed to win euro 2020 at this rate
Roy Keane going to the Barnsley v Swindon match today to watch him according to a small piece in the Irish Examiner by John Fallon
edit : Crowley is injured for today. Hope Roy didn't go all the way to Barnsley.
Last edited by TrapAPony; 12/09/2015 at 2:36 PM.
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
The Aston Villa one's new agent is also Bale's agent and at the annual Soccerex conference in Manchester during the week he said that Bale "declaring" for Wales over England has cost him millions. This was widely reported. My own guess is that Sam Wallace put 2 and 2 together and went public with his "scoop" about the Villa one choosing England. Clearly his agent will prefer if he chooses England.
I have to say I doubt it matters that much whether a Real Madrid superstar with a 100 million transfer tag is out of pocket by millions for being Welsh. But I'm not an agent.
He'd be a Real Madrid superstar with a 500 million transfer tag if he'd chosen England.
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