GUST apply for first division licence

[passerrby]

I from what I've been told (but don't quote me as I have nothing to do with the trust) GUSTFC will go down that route if needs be, just to have a club to support, but the rules aren't there for this to happen. GUSTFC want to start at the bottom of the LOI structure as it stands today which is in the first division so have applied for this licence.

Im sure they do but they would be in the first div because of results not because of sanctions for mismanagement and that means they wil not have been punished therefore no deterent going forward. I admire and respect what gust are trying to do but clubs must expect a sanction or this whole licensing wil continue to be viewed as a farce

[Spudulika]

Agree with point 1 MB, on the 2nd I'm not so sure and the following comment. Financial viability can be proved in so many ways, yet not one works. Clubs have been handed licences yet went belly up or got the begging bowls out a few months later. I don't know if there is a way to resolve it without resorting to a franchise model, or doing something discussed previously about having a compliance officer with each club, especially as none of our clubs (with precious few exceptions) seem capable of looking after themselves.

[passerrby]

There is a simple solution
If a club goes into administration then there licence is revoked, no funny business That would focus the mind of some people however it will not happen as the fai would be afraid of catching some of there bigger fish in this net meant for the minnows .

[El-Pietro]

that wouldnt help at all - galway havent gone into examinership!

[culloty82]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.

No matter how good the intention of the applicants, no club should be allowed into the LOI without proper financial viability.

Both good suggestions - after all both FORAS and the new Derry City have proven themselves to be well-run operations, so other than a name-change for the latter, the five-year rule wouldn't have made much difference to their current situation. As for the bond, the risk, as you say, is that new clubs would struggle to raise the cash for both their budgets and the deposit, but there needs to be some guarantee that there wouldn't be a mid-season collapse.

[peadar1987]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle).

Neither am I, to be honest, but they're better than the alternatives of fines, and outright denial of licenses. And you could argue that they're fair and proportional as well, a team stands to gain a certain number of points by flouting the rules, so the organising authority take those points away from them. (That said while maintaining a healthy awareness of the idiocy of expecting the FAI to apply anything fairly and proportionately!)

[dong]

Both good suggestions - after all both FORAS and the new Derry City have proven themselves to be well-run operations.

Not too sure you could say that at this stage.
Come back to me in another few years and I might agree.

[Charlie Darwin]

Neither am I, to be honest, but they're better than the alternatives of fines, and outright denial of licenses. And you could argue that they're fair and proportional as well, a team stands to gain a certain number of points by flouting the rules, so the organising authority take those points away from them. (That said while maintaining a healthy awareness of the idiocy of expecting the FAI to apply anything fairly and proportionately!)

Well if the Pats situation was anything to go by, they deduct 3 points per unregistered player per game, regardless of result, so how much would financial mismanagement be? 20,000 points?

[pineapple stu]

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.

I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

[Spudulika]

PS, what you've put down is simple, easy to follow and enforce, intelligent and will assist in the building of a solid and long term league - so it won't happen then. Football in Ireland has a mentality of fly by night, get it done handy, quick and cheap, ah sure, it'll be grand. Blame can be laid at the door of the GAA and IRFU for being more solid, community based and professionally run (there is a slight element of truth there but too easy to use). Also I've read, could be a point by one prominent Rovers activist or possibly John Giles, that football clubs have been by and large run by small businesspeople with lacking education and foresight - there's an element of truth to that, though it's not a reason for rejecting intelligent proposals to save the LOI.

[peadar1987]

Well if the Pats situation was anything to go by, they deduct 3 points per unregistered player per game, regardless of result, so how much would financial mismanagement be? 20,000 points?

For Pat's? 100 million billion points, clearly!

[marinobohs]

I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

Would happily welcome into the LOI any new club that is sustainable not any punter wanting a crack at LOI (or pyramid schemes playing at being a football club).

The FAI have shown themselves utterly incapable of administering the current watered down Licencing rules with anything remotely like consistency. To have things like League winners, relegation etc decided (via points deductions) by the whims of these people is just plain scary.* Have we forgotten so quickly the will they/wont they debacle of Pats registration issue ? Road penalty points are imposed by an Independent authority and,by and large,consistent. Our friends in Abbotstown are neither.




* Limerick can just disband now

[peadar1987]

Would happily welcome into the LOI any new club that is sustainable not any punter wanting a crack at LOI (or pyramid schemes playing at being a football club).

The FAI have shown themselves utterly incapable of administering the current watered down Licencing rules with anything remotely like consistency. To have things like League winners, relegation etc decided (via points deductions) by the whims of these people is just plain scary.* Have we forgotten so quickly the will they/wont they debacle of Pats registration issue ? Road penalty points are imposed by an Independent authority and,by and large,consistent. Our friends in Abbotstown are neither.




* Limerick can just disband now

Our choices are:

-Have the FAI decide licensing and sanctions.
-Have the league split away from the FAI, and have the clubs, or a third party (Platinum 1, etc.) decide licensing and sanctions.
-Not bother with licensing at all.

I know the FAI aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got.

What we need is a fudge-proof system for licensing, where everything is concrete. A sliding scale of points deductions for clubs who break budget restrictions, denial of licenses for worse offences.

The FAI simply shouldn't allow themselves any wiggle room. If, say, Sligo, don't comply with budget restrictions on licensing day, they should be able to look in a table, see they are spending 66% of the money on wages, and deduct them 1 point. If half way through the season, Bray's income is 15% below what they projected, 2 points. No conditional offers, no delay of deadlines, no scope for them to allow their favourites room to manoeuvre. It would be harsh, but at least it would be fair, and the league would be better for it, especially once clubs got it into their thick skulls that the FAI weren't fooling around any more, and it was a waste of their time and resources running things in anything but a sustainable manner.

The biggest issue I can see here is that of multi-year contracts, if a club is relegated, or will otherwise lose revenue. However, that could be avoided by, instead of agreeing to pay a player a set cash wage, you agree to pay him, say 4.5% of the club's turnover. If that drops, so does his wage (while also giving them a nice performance-related bonus if things go well)

[passerrby]

The biggest issue I can see here is that of multi-year contracts, if a club is relegated, or will otherwise lose revenue. However, that could be avoided by, instead of agreeing to pay a player a set cash wage, you agree to pay him, say 4.5% of the club's turnover. If that drops, so does his wage (while also giving them a nice performance-related bonus if things go well)

That brings us back to the root of the problem if people offer multi year contacts while relagation and reduction of proposed income is possible then your club is doomed to failure

[peadar1987]

That brings us back to the root of the problem if people offer multi year contacts while relagation and reduction of proposed income is possible then your club is doomed to failure

And if you don't, you're never going to get a decent transfer fee for a player you've developed. I think a percentage-based pay deal is a decent compromise.

[John83]

I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

We all know where that will end: Pete Mahon banned from the LoI for two years for failure to wear a seatbelt while criticising the FAI.

[passerrby]

And if you don't, you're never going to get a decent transfer fee for a player you've developed. I think a percentage-based pay deal is a decent compromise.

That's a gamble and we know we're that got us in the past

[sullanefc]

I hope GUST are allowed in the league, and I've no axe to grind with anyone in Galway but in most cases overspending is cheating as a club.

To walk away from that, practically untouched in some cases, clearly isn't fair on clubs who have stuggled to pay their way and suffered on the field.

You use the term holding company like it isn't really a part of the club. The people in charge of running a football club made decisions for the football club, and the football club should be responsible for that. It'd be like not relegating a club because their manager made some awful decision but 'he's only an employee, he's not the club..."

Awful analaogy maybe, but I simply don't agree that the 'holding company' argument stands up

I don't agree with the criticism leveled at GUST from posters on here. You may say that I'm a Cork City fan, and I would say that, but there you go. I've quoted Dodge's post as I think he has hit the nail on the head for the reasons that so many people are against the actions of GUST and possibly FORAS 2 years ago.

Firstly, I totally agree that Football clubs who live beyond there means are cheating and should be punished. There is a 65% rule (which is probably not being enforced) and there should also, IMO, be a rule to punish clubs who don't pay creditors on time. Points deductions and relegation should be the threat for football clubs who flout rules. Football fans will be angry with their board, and possibly the FAI, when this happens, but they can live with it. But this is as far as I would agree with you Dodge. I don't agree with your analogy, as bad decisions made by a football manager can at worst lead to relegation.

But the fans of Galway United are being threatened by the loss of their football club because of decisions made by their board. The same way that Cork City fans were threatened with the extinction of Cork City Football Club because of Tom Coughlan. Football Clubs are more than just companies Dodge. They represent communities who have supported them passionately for generations. They should not be taken away from them just because of bad decisions made by chairmen and boards etc. The punishment for the crime is not fair on football fans who just want a club to support.

Some people here think that walking away from debts is not on. But what would you have GUST do? 2 years ago, FORAS were willing to take over the club from CCFC and honour the debts, but Tom Coughlan did not want to play ball. What could they do? If FORAS didn't apply for a license they would not have a club to support. I'm not 100% sure of the ins and outs at Galway Utd, but if the board won't sell to GUST, what else can they do? They will be left without a club to support if they don't do what they are doing.

Also, the people suggesting that Galway Utd fans should just support Mervue or Salthill are obviously on a wind up. If Finn Harps folded would their fans just follow Derry City? Fanad? If Monaghan folded would their fans support Dundalk or Drogheda or whatever the nearest club was?

And the people saying that GUST should be forced to "work their way back up" are making no sense. The First Division is the lowest rung in the LOI ladder, so they are "working their way back up". Just because the first division is the lowest is hardly GUST's fault. There just isn't a long line of clubs looking to get into the LOI.

Apologies for the long post.

[gufcfan]

You managed to say what I've been thinking without coming across as a lunatic. We're all lunatics here though I suppose, if you think about it.

[passerrby]

so lets assume for a second that the people at gust are in fact a bunch of well intentioned fools and in a year or two we are back at the same place, should the newly formed independent supporters club be able to get a new license on the grounds that they pulled there support from gust and are far more sensible than the last lot. if so this crazy merry go round is never going to end, so could you stop and let me off.