I love the 'YOU'RE THE MEASURE OF OUR DREAMS' one.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
No, same as I wouldn't let McClean refuse to serve at a wedding of two British people. But then those are completely different to the issue of not bowing your head during a song.
I was responding to Danny's claims in regards to Pulis comments that:
'such an obligation would be completely out-of-order in any other place of work. If it's actually anything other than mere rhetoric to appease the outraged and, if enforced upon McClean and it had a detrimental effect upon his employment through reprimanding or some such on account of his conscientious objection, I'd imagine he'd have a good case for breach of his rights/direct discrimination on basis of belief under employment law. The Human Rights and Equality Acts apply in the workplace too. If my employer was instructing me in such a manner, I'd be flabbergasted. It would be utterly inappropriate.'
So, if Cisse didn't want to wear the Wonga logo Newcastle United FC shouldn't have told him he had to? That's my point.
In an ideal world, I think the liberal position would be to respect that (as much as I might personally disagree with such a position). Perhaps their conscience/beliefs would be protected under employment law. It's not a great analogy though; catering at an event upon request would presumably be an integral part of the catering job roll for which they've signed a contract (not that the signing of a contract necessarily washes all employee's rights away either, mind). In McClean's case, paying reverence to 'GSTQ' isn't part of his job roll. If the wedding catering issue was really such a strong objection on conscience/religious grounds and compromise was viable, perhaps another employee could be found to do that particular job or the job could be sub-contracted (as was seemingly approved by the judge in the recent Ashers Bakery case in Belfast when a Christian-run bakery refused the provision of a cake celebrating same-sex marriage, although the case isn't directly relevant either as it dealt with and upheld a case of alleged customer discrimination as opposed to employee discrimination).
Nobody was trying to be bigger than West Brom. If West Brom want personal beliefs left in the dressing room, that's fine, but that obviously isn't their policy if they're intent on engaging in overtly political spectacles such as anthem-playing and poppy celebration. And, as I've said, whatever about what Pulis might want to enforce, WBA, as an employer, are still subject to employment law like any other employer and are obliged not to mistreat, reprimand or dismiss their employees on grounds contrary to employment law.Pulis was making the point that we work together as a team and no one is bigger than WBA etc.... We all have a personal beliefs but when you put on that West Brom shirt and walk on the pitch you leave them in the dressing room.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 23/07/2015 at 11:45 AM.
I'm not sure what would have happened there. Cisse might well have had a case if he stood his ground and Newcastle enforced their policy to the detriment of his employment. I can't say for sure as I simply don't know how a judge might have decided if such a case had ever been made.
I wouldn't call it 'overtly political spectacles'. It's the custom in America to play national anthems before sporting events and the Poppy isn't regarded by many as a political symbol. The Poppy is to honour British services men, many who have played football and/or football fans. I don't think many people view it like that only the right-wing Britain First types. But surely McClean must have know that when he moved to England that there was a chance that he'd make it to a cup final?
It's undeniably overtly political; all national anthems, flags and symbols in furtherance of a particular ideal are. I don't know how someone could argue otherwise.
I'm sure McClean was and is aware of the possibility; he can just put his head down if he wishes to disengage, as is perfectly reasonable.
So how has James been doing this pre-season outside of the goal?
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Quiet, he's been keeping his head down.
Well I wouldn't know enough to speak confidently on employment law but conscientious objection is well-established in the workplace so he could certainly have a case that it's an unreasonable demand to make of him.
I assume McClean is going to have to wear the poppy at West Brom?
I wonder how many of the people complaining about McClean's stance had a problem with Jeremy Clarkson's risible behavior in the Falkland's? Not many I would hasten to guess.
Would English footballers be expected to face the Argentinian flag and respect their anthem? I have my doubts, but it's a one-way street as always; cultural dominance must be asserted.
I don't know anyone who had a problem with Sammy Morrow's behavior at the cup final in 2008. I personally wouldn't have the energy for it. I would pay respect to the English anthem and English flag, but I haven't heard a single one of the people spouting bile about McClean acknowledging precisely his reasons for doing so. It is not as black and white and simple as they portray.
And bringing up Gerry Adams and the I.R.A. I don't like the undertones there. A spade is a spade - Adams (personal opinion) & the I.R.A. are scum, but equally Ian Paisley incited hatred and poured gasoline on the fire and there were/are paramilitary groups on both sides.
...as I said, one way street.
National anthems should be played before International matches and that is it. Playing national anthems before club matches is an antiquated notion and must be left in the past.
Host countries should be respected, but also the nations/nationalities they are receiving.
Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 23/07/2015 at 6:28 PM. Reason: * personal opinion
West Brom have made no comment that would lead you to assume this
Clarkson did nothing wrong in Argentina, and the two incidents are unrelated
How is a hypothetical game between a club with English players and an Argentinian club related to this? It isn't
You're bringing up the Falklands and Jeremy Clarkson.
It's was a respectful act by the host club. Nothing more. Stop trying to blow playing the anthem into something it's not.
Nobody, anywhere, is debating that the host club showed anything other than respect
Yeah but what about the Nazis!?
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
It appears former Rangers defender Kirk Broadfoot has been banned for 10 games for sectarian abuse of James during a game last season. Charming.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...handed-6127136
I also recall the Scottish midfielder who was capped by Northern Ireland, Paul Paton, retweeting a sectarian tweet shortly after news of his declaring for Northern Ireland. I recall Aaron Doran & Richie Foran being the only two people in a group of Inverness players to get verbally and physically assaulted on a night out - and somehow the latter got reprimanded for defending himself! I recall Anthony Stokes receiving death threats.
I'm not delving into the past here, all of this has happened within a timeframe of roughly 12 months. God knows what we don't hear about. None of us have heard anything about this Broadfoot/McClean issue over the last 4 months. And it easily could have flown over our radar considering The Mirror are the only news group breaking this story.
I cannot see how McClean's actions are an issue in light of things like this.
I waded through dozens of comments on West Brom boards, and indeed boards of other clubs, and not one person mentioned anything about McClean's personal links to the atrocities in Derry; not one jot of comprehension or empathy over the broader issue - just vitriol. If he was from Offaly it's one thing, but....
He had to explain his actions to Dave Whelan - a person who made racist comments about Jewish people and Chinese people. Madness!
Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 23/07/2015 at 11:33 PM.
I looked it up. I see the number plate was deemed to be a coincidence. I didn't see that news story. I thought it was incendiary, and given Jeremy Clarkson's track record e.g. "slope", "lazy Irish" etc etc... I believed it was highly unlikely to be a coincidence at the time.Clarkson did nothing wrong in Argentina, and the two incidents are unrelated
That's truly baffling. I love this line- He's clearly such a religious guy:
In comparison to Broadfoot, I think the only thing that James has done that could be perceived as being offensive in his time as a footballer is the incident with the Wolfe Tones song and I don't think the lyrics or story behind that song could be construed by the most bigoted of person as offensive. The main issue there was that the song refers to the IRA so by imbecilic deduction, he's an IRA supporter. The IRA in 1920, you insidious and ignorant dimwits. http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29092505.htmlBroadfoot was born into a Protestant family in Ayrshire and is known to be a staunch supporters of certain cultural traditions relating to his religion.
Or am I missing something offensive he's done? M
Maybe McClean should have a new tweet: “On flight for the maras (tomorrow’s) game. Only one thing for it —headphones in, Sex Pistols on! What’s everyone’s fave song? God Save the Queen's mine.”
I thought one hilarious comment on those WBA boards was one where someone inferred McClean's actions were to impress his mates and earn himself a pat on the back and a pint in Derry. McClean doesn't drink and I doubt he needs his mates that earn a fraction of his wage to buy him a pint.
What the hell is the wonga logo?
No Somos muchos pero estamos locos.
wonga is a loan company in England. They sponsor Newcastle's jersey. I'm a bit sketchy on the exact religious details here, but Cisse is a Muslim, and his religion forbids owing money, so it was reported that he wouldn't wear the jersey with that sponsor on it. However, he had no problem with it, other Muslim players in England had worn jerseys sponsored by similar companies and it all went away pretty quickly.
On social media he has, variously
- accused all NI fans (and most of the players) of being sectarian bigots
- claimed he knew who sent bullets in the post to various players
- expressed support for the modern IRA*
* there's a bit of a grey area. Unionist banners for the 12th routinely feature the UVF. They claim it's the historical 1912 version, but obviously their 2012 successors are holding sway in the Estates.
Posting Permissions
Quote
Bookmarks