Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I think when you are growing up the natural thing is to play for your local football association for all sorts of practical
reasons.
Afterall the under age squads are stepping stone for playing for the senior squad aren't they?
I mean is Kevin Doyle said he used the Irish under age squads as a stepping stone to the full team would anyone be offended?
What nonsense.
The National Flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not sectarian - it is idiocy to suggest it is.
I wouldn't mind the IFA adopting the St Patrick's Cross as their official flag, instead of the Ulster Banner - that would equate with what the Scots do.
If a Union Flag 'offends' you, you've got some serious issues you need to work through.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Put simply, there should be no place in any IFA squad at Under 19 and above for any player who harbours ambitions of playing senior International football for another Association.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Not a bad idea. So when the likes of McClean and Wilson decided to wrap the door of the FAI repeatedly, can you explain the rationale in Michael O'Neill stating in the media that the pair should be contacted?
Well I suppose O'Neill's approach would all make total sense if Wilson and McClean had a complete change of heart and decided they were in fact Northern Irish. Then he'd be justified. Don't think that occurred though, I'm open to correction.
I think it's fairly clear that what you consider best practice should be in some regards, is not always the best practice exercised by the IFA and, henceforth, not best practice exercised by certain players in making an early decision (the merits of which have been repeatedly discussed). You constantly put forward the early decision theory and which the IFA subsequently shoots down by even entertaining the prospect of players like McClean, Wilson and Alex Bruce entering the Northern Irish fold.
So perhaps I made an error by referring to sectarian flags, which I do retract, by all means, if there doesn't exist any flag with sectarian connotations at such internationals. But, on what grounds do you now refer to McClean as a "sectarian bigot"? This is a term I've seen bandied about in circles such as the OWC. I've only seen McClean assert his own identity. Whilst his use of the word 'catholic' as interchangeable with 'republican', I think it's somewhat innocent and clearly not intended to infer offence.Whilst McClean does come across as a bit of a sectarian bigot - given his recent comments to the press - the neanderthals threatening him, and dishing out sectarian abuse, are utter pond life.
How many of the numerous lower-league English players in recent squads have honestly harboured life-long ambitions of representing Northern Ireland? And I'm sure by extension this can relate to English-born players in Irish squads also. If an underage IFA squad contains two players, one being a Republican born in Derry and the other being English declaring for Northern Ireland, it may well be the case that both players are only using the call-up for career prospects.
It is a sectarian symbol in the context in which it is used.
No point in denying the obvious.
I have no serious issues, it is the IFA which has serious issues.
You see that is ridiculous and indicative of the problems within the IFA and their supporters - absolutely ridiculous and sectarian.
Unbelievable!!!
I don't quite understand what your point is, I did realise not English players were allowed to represent NI, unless here has been a rule change I have not heard about.
Last edited by tricky_colour; 12/05/2012 at 9:45 PM.
That agreement amongst the home nations not to pick other each others players was done away with a while ago I presume thats what your thinking about anyway. There are plenty of English born players in NI teams now Lee Camp has England U21 caps and the likes of Norwood, Thompson, Hodson and Gorman were born in England IIRC.
On the issue of flags I did find it funny that last year in the Carling Nations cup the NI fans there had mostly union Jacks on show don't think the Scots or Welsh had any UJs on show. There were just a couple of Ulster banners and also a large flag of the Royal Irish Regiment on show which seemed a bit odd to me a bit out of place at a football match IMO
Last edited by SolitudeRed; 12/05/2012 at 9:08 PM.
My analogy muddied the waters a bit.
My point is that while some Northern Irish supporters fall over themselves to criticize Republicans who use international football with the IFA merely for career furthering purposes.
However, they will not be so willing to castigate English players who use Northern Ireland caps for the exact same purpose.
Niall McGinn has stated that he supports Ireland, so I doubt his boyhood dream was to represent the IFA. But he does so, for whatever purposes. Maybe he feels this is his best chance of international recognition, which was most likely the case for James McClean prior to his move to Sunderland and his good form at Derry.
I'm just wondering about the viability of the FAI approaching player selection slightly differently. Were underage managers to pick squads on the basis of the best players born in the 32 counties in said age-groups, wouldn't this stamp out players being picked by the IFA and the same players staying with the IFA longer than deemed acceptable by supporters when the facts of the case are that the player's ambition lies with Ireland? Again, this would probably result in the old poaching objection being wheeled out but the benefits in directly providing the players with the option (FAI, IFA) from an early stage could help ensure player's ambitions are ascertained early on (if said player holds fully-formed, unequivocal and precise aspirations in their teens).
1. Thanks
2. Fair play for admitting your mistake
3. I'm sure some of republicanism's founding fathers would be well impressed by young James using the word "Catholic" as being interchangeable with "Republican".
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
McClean comes across as being naive and uneducated. For whatever reason, you don't like to admit what McClean's comments expose about the Northern Ireland set up and environment and how it is generally viewed.
Odd that you think there will be more Union Jacks, given that the association claims to want to be more inclusive, not exclusive. And fans stress their desire to see a "cross-community" team.
I suppose Irish nationalists will have to cede to the continued one-sided image of the Northern Ireland team, for it is clearly the unionist identity that carries most weight - the sensitivities of nationalists who might play for or support Northern Ireland does not matter enough to change GTSQ, to tone down flags saying "GOD SAVE THE QUEEN", Orange Order flags and so on. They will have to like it or lump it.
Relevant images: http://www.inpho.ie/cache/inpho/f4/c...O_00514392.jpg
http://www.inpho.ie/cache/inpho/ef/1...O_00514390.jpg
http://www.inpho.ie/cache/inpho/ac/b...O_00516028.jpg
http://www.inpho.ie/cache/inpho/7f/d...O_00519756.jpg
No, it's all James' fault for feeling uncomfortable.
Last edited by Predator; 12/05/2012 at 9:39 PM.
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the identity of any player in any of IFA underage squads who harbours realistic ambitions of playing for England?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
It's not sectarian in any way shape or form.
The Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland - albeit not used by the IFA in an official capacity at our matches.
The IFA is, proudly, a British Association.
You have to be a British Citizen to play for Northern Ireland.
If there was no Union, there would be no Northern Ireland.
There is a Union - and for that reason you are always likely to find some patriotic British Citizens at Northern Ireland matches with Union Flags.
I've no gripes with republicans not wanting to play for Northern Ireland - except McClean did.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
James told us all he felt uncomfortable because he's a Catholic.
He dragged his religious beliefs into the discussion on more than one occasion.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Yes, it's all his fault...
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
That was very selective, editing my post to ignore my counter-arguments.
I'll restate them:
1. Michael O'Neill's willingness/eagerness to call up McClean and Wilson: I thought they made their decision, did Michael not get the memo that players finalizing their international allegiance 'early' would help the IFA?
2. Do sectarian flags exist in Windsor Park at international games?
3. Why is James McClean a "sectarian bigot"? Please answer with examples and evidence. Examples and evidence should demonstrate James McClean held the intention to owe himself to sectarianism. Do you construe his misguided but innocent rotation of 'catholic' and 'republic' as downright sectarianism?
I think 'realistic' is the operative word in this respect.
Were McClean's Ireland ambitions 'realistic' prior to his Sunderland move, while he was with Derry City and playing for NI under-21's? His move to Sunderland made these dreams more likely to be realised. Should Lee Hodson or any of the other 9 or more English-born players in the latest NI under 21 side gain a move to Chelsea or Manchester United in the morning, is it possible that they will consider a switch of allegiance?
Maybe some day we'll see a IFA player switch their allegiance to the English FA and see whether they are met with the same bile that McClean (or any of his counterparts) was.
Last edited by Olé Olé; 12/05/2012 at 10:13 PM.
It's pretty simple for me, you play for your local FA when you are growing up then you choose your senior FA when the time comes
if you are good enough.
All the rest is a load of nonsense, it's the players decision who he plays for not that of an FA, not least because what kind of idiot
would force a player to play for a team he did not want to represent.
Trying to terrorise a player into playing for you is the daftest idea I have every heard, you could not make it up.
I'd prescribe to this. There are plenty examples of international footballers playing underage football for their country of birth, erstwhile intending and hoping to play international football with another country and will commit to these intentions at the earliest convenience. In the context of Ireland's first Euro2012 game, Ivan Rakitic is one such player who is Swiss-born to Croat parents and played under 21 for Switzerland. Quality player, big loss to Switzerland but he was plying his trade with Basel and switching allegiance to Croatia would hardly be the best move for an un-established young player. A bit of breathing space and less pressure is the most equitable way to treat such players.
While I'd harbour some sentiment that you should play and ally yourself with the association and country you want to represent, there can exist circumstances which render this difficult for young footballers who are already in a high-pressure environment.
1. O'Neill was absolutely wrong to even entertain the notion of approaching either McClean or Wilson.
2. What do you define as a 'sectarian flag'?
3. I said he comes across as a bit of a sectarian bigot. In his press statements eg, 'not many Catholics' in the squads (how many is not many James?), it comes across that he is uncomfortable with Protestants. He seems eager to bang on about where he says his prayers...why?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
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