James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[Fixer82]

The poppy money raised is paid to the Royal British Legion, is to commemorate all fallen British soldiers who died in all wars and is increasingly used as a propaganda tool in an increasingly militarised world.
Why should a footballer have to engage in this rubbish?

I wish the UK would get the poppy back to what it was originally intended for: A private show of respect one day a year for WW1 instead of a jingoistic parade that lasts a whole month and is forced upon the lapel of everyone that appears on UK tv.

Placing the poppy on football jerseys is crass. As is rolling out the military at every premiership game, X Factor finals, Britain’s Got talent, Saturday night take-away etc.
Reminds me of 1930s Germany.

[Fixer82]

Tets is going to reign us all in very quickly for turning this into a history debate rather than a football one - but I'm as guilty as anyone.
I should have made the distinction clearer between the World Wars - WWI as you correctly point out was between imperialsitc states and it began after the Archduke Franz Ferdinand incident. However, intelligent as your opening salvos are, you just cannot be serious when you say: "the idea that the British forces at any time have had a positive influence in Ireland is laughable."

Laughable is the correct word for that statement. Leaving the Troubles aside, we never would have been there to experience those awful times in the late 60's and early 70's had it not been for the British. They joined the Americans to fight and defeat the Germans when the rest of Europe, with a few exceptions, was lying down. You have never heard your parents say that we would have all been in concentration camps had the Nazis won the war? You mention that the British had plans to invade Ireland? I have never heard that, but I am willing to research it. Could it perhaps have been because we were refuelling German U-boats on the west coast of Ireland during WWII? Maybe, maybe not, but what you say is interesting nonetheless.

And lastly, Irish slavery was perpetrated by the British (the Vikings were the ealier slave traders). I don't dispute that for one second. All I was saying is that some people out there (not related to this site) are trying to rewrite history (and their numbers are growing), saying that there was no such thing as Irish slavery. If anybody ever debates the existence of Irish slavery with you Liamo, remind them that the natives of the island of Montserrat (in the Carribean) were but a few hundred. However in the late 1700's and early 1800's the population on the island was estimated to be 100,000. Where did all the people (slaves) come from? Answer 60 per cent from Africa, and 40 per cent from Ireland. The common denominator - the British.

I think you need to read more about Montserrat. The behaviour of the Irish in Montserrat was not exemplary and was a classic case of freed slaves attempting to become slave masters.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I was in London last week for the first time in nearly two decades, and the poppy was everywhere, and this was several days before the 11th. Every second person, every train, buses, buildings, boats all covered in them. I saw one person wearing five, and another wearing one that appeared to have some jewelry embedded.

It was all well and good when we visited the display outside Westminister Abbey, which I thought was well put-together and a suitable place to use the poppy for its intended purpose. But I couldn't help but feel the remainder was strangely off-putting. It's hard not to feel uncomfortable not wearing one when everyone around you is, like you're being silently judged.

Or, to make an on-topic comment, James McClean is well within his rights not to wear one, and to be affronted by any suggestion that he should. It's treatment by British press and culture has become fetish-like.

[Gather round]

I'll allow it, for now. But try to reach a conclusion

* JMC was criticised initially just because he didn't wear one, not due to his chippiness, support for SF or any other reason

* anyone else doing so would have been similarly slated- whether they were German, Argentine, Iraqi, Serb, Pacifist, Left-wing or whatever. So hardly anyone else has followed his lead

* the 'season' will almost certainly recur next year and will be just as bad. Potentially it may be worse, say if Brexit goes even more chaotically than expected, or if Betty Windsor dies aged 93 (in which case think of recent weeks as a dress rehearsal)

* if Varadkar, Ni Riadh etc want to join that's up to them. They won't get much credit that I can see- and also it encourages exaggerated outrage at home. To what end?

[jbyrne]

anyone else [/B]doing so would have been similarly slated- whether they were German, Argentine, Iraqi, Serb, Pacifist, Left-wing or whatever. So hardly anyone else has followed his lead

has Nemanja Matić?

[Gather round]

Yes, he has.

[Fixer82]

Yes, he has.

Must have blinked and missed that one.

[Stuttgart88]

I don’t think it’s fair to say the rest of Europe was lying down. That’s a pretty Anglo-centric view of the war, just as forgetting Russia’s critical role was.

[Stuttgart88]

I was in London last week for the first time in nearly two decades, and the poppy was everywhere, and this was several days before the 11th. Every second person, every train, buses, buildings, boats all covered in them. I saw one person wearing five, and another wearing one that appeared to have some jewelry embedded.

It was all well and good when we visited the display outside Westminister Abbey, which I thought was well put-together and a suitable place to use the poppy for its intended purpose. But I couldn't help but feel the remainder was strangely off-putting. It's hard not to feel uncomfortable not wearing one when everyone around you is, like you're being silently judged.

Or, to make an on-topic comment, James McClean is well within his rights not to wear one, and to be affronted by any suggestion that he should. It's treatment by British press and culture has become fetish-like.

I live in London and on one hand you just can’t escape the poppy fervour yet on the other it’s noticeable, to me anyway, that lots and lots don’t wear one.

[Gather round]

Must have blinked and missed that one

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footb...hester-united/

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...m-Man-Utd-news

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sp...ngs-child.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46099843

If you're suggesting that McClean gets much worse (which I accept), I suggest it's because of his personal chippiness/ politics rather than any general anti-Irish bias.

[Fixer82]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footb...hester-united/

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...m-Man-Utd-news

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sp...ngs-child.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46099843

If you're suggesting that McClean gets much worse (which I accept), I suggest it's because of his personal chippiness/ politics rather than any general anti-Irish bias.

I would suggest it’s because most of the knuckle-draggers couldn’t pick Serbia out on a map.

[Gather round]

Heh. In my experience of Stoke City's k-d support (and I live in Staffordshire), they'd struggle to find Derby and Crewe on a map, let alone Derry and Creggan

[mark12345]

I think you need to read more about Montserrat. The behaviour of the Irish in Montserrat was not exemplary and was a classic case of freed slaves attempting to become slave masters.

I am aware of that Fixer, just as there were some slave masters in training among the African group also. There is good and bad everywhere.
All in all there were 80 - 90K Irish slaves in the Caribbean, including the Sugar Slaves of Barbados, many of whom were transported from Cork I believe.
The Virginia Company of London were the driving force behind the slavery. Their goal was to reap the goods (cotton, tobacco) in places like Virginia and the Carribean on the backs of the Irish and the African slaves.

[Fixer82]

I am aware of that Fixer, just as there were some slave masters in training among the African group also. There is good and bad everywhere.
All in all there were 80 - 90K Irish slaves in the Caribbean, including the Sugar Slaves of Barbados, many of whom were transported from Cork I believe.
The Virginia Company of London were the driving force behind the slavery. Their goal was to reap the goods (cotton, tobacco) in places like Virginia and the Carribean on the backs of the Irish and the African slaves.

Yes, this is true.
Cromwell sent many Irish over to the West Indies/colonies.

But Montserrat was an attempt by Irish slaves to form their own colony.

Now, back to James McClean.
I support him 100%. Just so ya know

[mark12345]

I don’t think it’s fair to say the rest of Europe was lying down. That’s a pretty Anglo-centric view of the war, just as forgetting Russia’s critical role was.

Russia most definitely played a critical role in WWII. The Germans were decimated on that front. But think of France whom (in the famous words of Brian Clough - there Tets I am making a football reference to keep it relevant) let the Germans come through in three days. Holland, if I recall, put up no resistence. Italy went to the other side and Spain - did they even join the Allied forces? The Norwegian resistence deserves special mention for their obstruction of Germany's bid to bulild the atomic bomb but essentially it was left to the British and Americans to defend Europe.

[The Fly]

I was in London last week for the first time in nearly two decades, and the poppy was everywhere, and this was several days before the 11th. Every second person, every train, buses, buildings, boats all covered in them. I saw one person wearing five, and another wearing one that appeared to have some jewelry embedded.

It was all well and good when we visited the display outside Westminister Abbey, which I thought was well put-together and a suitable place to use the poppy for its intended purpose. But I couldn't help but feel the remainder was strangely off-putting. It's hard not to feel uncomfortable not wearing one when everyone around you is, like you're being silently judged.

This twitter account is a must see at this time of year -

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch

[mark12345]

Yes, this is true.
Cromwell sent many Irish over to the West Indies/colonies.

But Montserrat was an attempt by Irish slaves to form their own colony.

Now, back to James McClean.
I support him 100%. Just so ya know

If the Irish slaves tried to form their own 'colony' in Montserrat, as in use the land to support themselves behind the backs of the British colonists, then fair play to them.
And just so ya know, I support James McClean's right to make his own mind up. I think it's crazy what he's putting himself through but I support his right to have a choice.

[Stuttgart88]

This twitter account is a must see at this time of year -

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch

I saw a middle-aged overweight skinhead type walking his bulldog in NW6 last week. The bulldog was wearing a poppy.

[bennocelt]

This twitter account is a must see at this time of year -

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch

Thats funny alright, one on a bin lorry, could be a pishtake but its hard to say!

I was attacked in a pub once when I was living in London. Some clown took it upon himself to walk around the pub and ask all customers to buy a poppy. I politely declined and no more. The fella had a melt down, absolute melt down, and went on a full blown anti Irish tirade. Had to be thrown out of the place, but other customers chipped in with some rubbish too. Wasn't too bothered (i am like that!), but it really wasn't because I was Irish, but I felt that with the war in Iraq it was all a bit of a joke. Was around the time of tony blair and his lying. Its just war propaganda IMHO, and fair dues to James for having the balls to stand by his principles. In fact I feel quite a lot of British people support his views.
I agree with Stuttgart88, I found a lot of ordinary people didn't wear one, but you'd never guess that if you watched the TV. In fact I often wonder how I lived in the UK for so long and this poppy rubbish passed me by a lot of the time!

[Fixer82]

This sums it up for me
https://twitter.com/kayburley/status...171394?lang=en