James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[Closed Account]

I've problem with people taking a symbol like the poppy and putting their own beliefs and views on it. Things like 'blood stained poppy' and 'proud to be British? - wear a poppy!' annoy me as it's not about original meaning of the poppy.

Would you agree that the original meaning of something can change over time and can mean different things to different people? Surely the entire scenario boils down to freedom and a single persons entirely valid freedom of choice not to wear a poppy.
I think you'd struggle to find a single bit of evidence that James has ever referred to it as a blood stained poppy and said anything negative about the casualties of WW1 or WW2. Despite the outrage he suffers, you have to give him credit for sticking to his beliefs. The outrage he'd suffer back in his own part of the world would be far less tolerable.

[GypsyBlackCat]

Would you agree that the original meaning of something can change over time and can mean different things to different people? Surely the entire scenario boils down to freedom and a single persons entirely valid freedom of choice not to wear a poppy.
I think you'd struggle to find a single bit of evidence that James has ever referred to it as a blood stained poppy and said anything negative about the casualties of WW1 or WW2. Despite the outrage he suffers, you have to give him credit for sticking to his beliefs. The outrage he'd suffer back in his own part of the world would be far less tolerable.

I agree and I'm not just talking about him. It's also the far-right, loyalist and nationalist groups like the EDL and Britain First. And here's the problem, the poppy was never meant to be a nationalist, political or religious symbol. It was to remember the dead from all sides and also new life and hope. Fair play to him for standing for his beliefs but I disagree with him. I don't see it as blood stain flower of British imperialism or as a proud British emblem as the far right like to call it.

He never called it a 'blood stain poppy' it's a line thrown out by people who oppose the poppy.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's like saying it's ok for ISIS to go around killing the infidels because that's the beliefs and views of the Qu'ran and Islam!

No, because that's murder. It's not really the same as having an opinion, no matter how much you don't like James McClean.

[Closed Account]

I disagree with him. I don't see it as blood stain flower of British imperialism or as a proud British emblem as the far right like to call it.

And I agree with you. I don't see it as blood stained or a proud British Emblem either. I simply see it as a fund raising product in support of a good cause. Like a daffodil or pink ribbon. But James has made his case quite clear also and never mentions anything negative about it being a british symbol or anything as jingoistic as that.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It's quite straightforward and the problem, to me, seems to have only arisen because of an ignorant assumption by people that a young lad from Derry not wearing a poppy automatically means he's a pro-IRA anti British neanderthal.

[GypsyBlackCat]

No, because that's murder. It's not really the same as having an opinion, no matter how much you don't like James McClean.

I'll admit I don't like McClean. I don't rate him as a player and don't like the lies he told about Sunderland and I disagree with his beliefs.

[GypsyBlackCat]

And I agree with you. I don't see it as blood stained or a proud British Emblem either. I simply see it as a fund raising product in support of a good cause. Like a daffodil or pink ribbon. But James has made his case quite clear also and never mentions anything negative about it being a british symbol or anything as jingoistic as that.

It's quite straightforward and the problem, to me, seems to have only arisen because of an ignorant assumption by people that a young lad from Derry not wearing a poppy automatically means he's a pro-IRA anti British neanderthal.

I agree but he doesn't help himself though with posting Wolftones songs on Twitter and the whole GSTQ queen. So when people see that they jump to conclusions.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'll admit I don't like McClean. I don't rate him as a player and don't like the lies he told about Sunderland and I disagree with his beliefs.

You're allowed disagree with his beliefs. The problem is you seem to have gone one further and refuse to believe it's even possible for somebody to see a very different symbolism in the poppy from how you see it.

[GypsyBlackCat]

You're allowed disagree with his beliefs. The problem is you seem to have gone one further and refuse to believe it's even possible for somebody to see a very different symbolism in the poppy from how you see it.

I know he does and as I said British nationalist have a different view. But original mean of is the one that stands to me. Not the 'our brave boys over seas' or 'symbol of British imperialism'.

[tetsujin1979]

Please note that discussing McClean's choice to wear the poppy on this thread is fine. Bringing ISIS, the Easter lily, acts committed by the British army unrelated to McClean, etc is not.

[Charlie Darwin]

I know he does and as I said British nationalist have a different view. But original mean of is the one that stands to me. Not the 'our brave boys over seas' or 'symbol of British imperialism'.

But, as I said, it's a symbol. As soon as the British legion started spreading it around they lost control of how it would be perceived.

[DannyInvincible]

Read what I said. The mean and reason behind the poppy. You are linking all the atrocities carried out to the poppy. I my opinion that's wrong. I believe in the original mean of the poppy. The poppy became to emblem of The Royal British Legion. The funds raised go to ex-service personnel and their families. NOT to the British Army. Also it's not a symbol of war, imperialism or British nationalism as you put it. Even the RBL say this. McClean doesn't have to wear one if he doesn't want to but people have the right to question his motives and views. As far as I know, no one at Sunderland, Wigan, WBA or the FA have forced him to wear one.

You go on like 'James' is some kind of victim and is being bullied. But here's the thing, you connect all those atrocities to the poppy as well British nationalism then you must see it from the other way. McClean likes to post pro-Republican songs by The Wolftones about the IRA on Twitter or wearing an Easter Lilly which like the poppy has been taken over by Republicans and has been used by groups like the PIRA and CIRA. Not to mention his 6th form protest against GSTQ and their flag. Surely you must understand how that can come across to British people?

As I said, I don't mind if he doesn't wear a poppy I just don't agree with his reasons and I think he's got it wrong. I've no problem with the white poppy or the purple one. I understand the reasons behind them.

As DeLorean posted earlier before deleting, the RBL themselves state on their website:

The poppy is a powerful symbol – it is worn to commemorate the sacrifices of our Armed Forces and to show support to those still serving today and their loved ones.

That's an explicit expression of support for present and contemporary conflicts. David Cameron also connected it with support for modern conflicts at the official Tower of London memorial last year. Memories of the Troubles in the north are still very raw, whilst some legacy issues relating to the conduct of the British army remain far from resolved. Truth and transparency will breed trust and acceptance of or greater comfort with the symbols of the "other" that have long been viewed as contentious.

I never said it was a symbol of war, imperialism or British nationalism, nor would I say that. It has different meaning for different people. It's a subjective call (even in spite of what the RBL and Cameron say) and I've not made an objective declaration as to what it means because that would give my interpretation of it some sort of primacy that it doesn't have. I can acknowledge that it possesses a meaning of peace for you, but you must surely acknowledge that won't be universal. I was expressing the point that it is used, abused or exploited in a manner whereby it becomes loaded with militaristic baggage and thus has difficult connotations for persons from the nationalist community in the north especially (although I'm sure there are others around the world who might find it problematic also).

But James is a victim and is being bullied. Is he not? His personal politics, which aren't posing physical or mental harm to anyone, don't justify the abuse and bullying. The difference is that James doesn't abuse people who wish to don the poppy or celebrate/observe 'GSTQ'. He lets them get on with it. He is paid no such tolerance or respect, however, by those so keen to abuse him.

[Stuttgart88]

It must be early November again

[DeLorean]

Switching to football related matters.... I see Jim Joe tweeted on the Rangers and Sunderland games yesterday.

[SkStu]

I've problem with people taking a symbol like the poppy and putting their own beliefs and views on it. Things like 'blood stained poppy' and 'proud to be British? - wear a poppy!' annoy me as it's not about original meaning of the poppy.

once its been symbolically and societally hijacked - whoever is guilty of doing so - its original meaning kind of becomes irrelevant.

Now, where did I leave my swastika...?

[Closed Account]

Now, where did I leave my swastika...?

I was tempted to mention it but didn't want to invoke Godwins Law. End of discussion imminent.

[GypsyBlackCat]

once its been symbolically and societally hijacked - whoever is guilty of doing so - its original meaning kind of becomes irrelevant.

Now, where did I leave my swastika...?

When I was in London one weekend a place just down from where I was staying had it's windows smashed by an anti-fascist group. It turned out to be a shop ran by Hindus!

[geysir]

I'll admit I don't like McClean. I don't rate him as a player and don't like the lies he told about Sunderland and I disagree with his beliefs.

At least you admit your bias and prejudices towards McClean which in general is the hallmark for those Irish and English people who have an antipathy towards McClean. But you also pepper your prejudices with mistruths. McClean's issue with the Sunderland club was with the press officers who advised him not to explain himself, he had no issue with MON who supported him 100%.
It's unfortunate that your empathy is directed at understanding the bigoted reactions fomented by british nationalists but be prejudiced and biased towards McClean, it cheapens the sincerity of your opinions
A truism going back thousands of years is that the fascist minded need to hate and find scapegoats for that hate. And then they blame the targets of their abuse for fomenting their urges to abuse.

McClean doesn't have to wear one if he doesn't want to but people have the right to question his motives and views

By question do you mean a sit down and put a question to James or people have a right to direct foul mouthed, racist, anti-Irish abuse at him?
because as it turns out, he has answered eloquently re his motives and views, something which he was advised not to do at Sunderland.

But that's not the issue is it? the issue is the foul mouthed, racist, anti-Irish abuse directed at McClean during football matches by racists and the gormless.
Those fans who throw such abuse at players during a game should be targeted and banned from football and players who do likewise should also face sanctions, like that Broadfoot character who copped a 10 match ban for his choice of words towards McClean. The 10 match ban is an indication of just how this type of abuse is regarded in some quarters, as even more serious than any other racist/ethnic abuse incident, in football, in Europe. But there needs to be more consistency.

When I was in London one weekend a place just down from where I was staying had it's windows smashed by an anti-fascist group. It turned out to be a shop ran by Hindus!

I really don't get the relevance of that piece of hearsay, but it smells.

[elroy]

IMO the EPL and FA should follow the FIFA and Uefa stance such that no such emblems, symbols etc are allowed.

[punkrocket]

Maybe James should join Southampton, they weren't wearing poppies today. I wonder will they face a media storm now.

[tricky_colour]

This is a bit old but I don't think it has been posted here but then I don't think too many people read the Daily Express,
seems mainly for semi-literate right wingers.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/615...Leicester-City