James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[Not Brazil]

Are you happy with the future Queen Consort as well?

I'm not unhappy about it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That 'difficult second season'.

Starting to think MO'N has started to lose the plot a wee bit too...

[The Fly]

I'm not unhappy about it.

Now that's loyalism.

[Not Brazil]

Regarding your last point, you my friend existing in that bubble of reality called Northern Ireland are a dinosaur of a bygone age. The average English person where I live in the South East who's considerably less than pensionable age has no great vested interest in remembrance day or the current plight of their armed forces. They have similar opinions to me on the matter than you which will come as no great surprise to anyone who's lived over here.

I am no dinosaur, my friend. That I respect the sacrifices and bravery of our Armed Forces, and uphold your right (and that of anyone else, including young McClean) who chooses to think differently on that issue, does not me a dinasaur make.

If you think, based on your "average English person" (whatever that means?) survey, that the United Kingdom will ever forget The Fallen, you are sadly deluded.

In villages, towns and Cities throughout the South East Of England (and elsewhere in the United Kingdom and further afield) , people will be wearing Poppies in proud Remembrance of The Fallen until well after you and me are dust.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Another take.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/28-...elp-for-heroes

See if you can spot the occasional foot.ie poster...

And an apt reflection on the poppy hype.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-poppy-cartoon

And a good piece.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/n...ew/full/125980

[peadar1987]

Fair point Peader but I'd imagine most of the rank and file of the SS truly believed they were protecting and indeed promoting the well being of Germany during World War 2. Few would have seen themselves as the fanatical and aggressive threat they undoubtedly were. If young lads are stupid enough to believe they are protecting one of the most powerful countries in the world from danger by fighting Pashtun tribesmen in the remote hills of Afghanistan whos way of life has changed little in hundreds of years then I'm not sure they deserve much respect. Pity perhaps but not respect and far less pity than the innocents caught up in the fighting. This poppy thing will be ditched by the British in time anyway. Most young people here think of it in similar means as I do a leftover of a bygone age best consigned to the past - it's the crusty nosed toffs in the establishment that keep these ideas alive but fortunately most of these will be dead in the next few decades anyway.

Swerving wildly off topic here, but I had a good discussion with someone about this the other day. We were talking about the Aztecs, and how immoral human sacrifice was. I sort of reckon if you were an Aztec priest who sincerely believed the sun god was going to make the crops fail, and therefore reluctantly cut the hearts out of peoples' chests, you can't really be considered a bad person. Morals is a really, really complicated issue though. Not really one for a James McClean thread!

[Not Brazil]

We were talking about the Aztecs, and how immoral human sacrifice was.

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

[youngirish]

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

Yes the mindless meat grinder of human flesh that was the Great War. It achieved the enviable goal of amplifying the hatred and bitterness that had existed beforehand and helped pave the way for an even greater war 21 years later. Such noble sacrifice indeed to jump out of a trench into a hail of machine gun bullets at the command of some inbred, aristocratic, idiotic officer with little or no actual combat experience miles behind the lines who achieved his commission because his daddy played cricket on Sunday afternoons with the Prime minister's cousin. Yes that same top brass drawn from the upper echelons of British society who had declared war on Germany in the first place to protect their own vested interests.

What's it like living in 1895? You have about the same understanding of these topics as the average Victorian gnat. Do you ever actually question this tripe you've been spoonfed from birth and tried to formulate anything resembling an opinion of your own on these matters or would that be too much to ask?

For my part I have no interest in Brit bashing. My son is English and most of my friends are English. My objections are noted in quite a fair bit of detail above and centre around the whole ridiculousness of placing people who essentially are trained to kill other people on some sort of pedestal in 21st century society. Its comical to some degree. The fact you don't get the joke makes it even more so.

[The Fly]

Yes the mindless meat grinder of human flesh that was the Great War. It achieved the enviable goal of amplifying the hatred and bitterness that had existed beforehand and helped pave the way for an even greater war 21 years later. Such noble sacrifice indeed to jump out of a trench into a hail of machine gun bullets at the command of some inbred, aristocratic, idiotic officer with little or no actual combat experience miles behind the lines who achieved his commission because his daddy played cricket on Sunday afternoons with the Prime minister's cousin. Yes that same top brass drawn from the upper echelons of British society who had declared war on Germany in the first place to protect their own vested interests.

What makes those massed ranks of young men particularly worthy of respect and remembrance, is that they were mainly conscripted into the horrors of WWI.

[youngirish]

Not true the majority of British soldiers killed in World War 1 were volunteers. Only after 1916 was conscription introduced. Nobody in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or any of the other conflicts that Britain have been involved in were conscripts with the exception of World War 2 so this is a fairly inconsequential argument.

[The Fly]

Not true the majority of British soldiers killed in World War 1 were volunteers. Only after 1916 was conscription introduced.

I was referring to the Allied forces as a whole.

Nobody in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or any of the other conflicts that Britain have been involved in were conscripts with the exception of World War 2 so this is a fairly inconsequential argument.

I know that. I haven't referred to Iraq, Afghanistan or any other conflict/war that Britain has been involved in post-WW2.

[gastric]

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

It is interesting you mention the ANZACs. At no point in any ceremony over here are the sacrifices of anyone outside of Oz and NZ mentioned or acknowledged. They really don't care about the 'Old Country' or any contribution made by anyone else.

And in an attempt to derail the poppy debate, James is auctioning his poppyless top, all proceeds to go to a local cancer ward. Ahh, isn't he wonderful! That or Sunderland have a good PR person.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...=feeds-newsxml

[bennocelt]

No, I don't wear one.

What don't I understand? That its majorly pro-Brit symbolism? If that's the case then just say it. I know that if it was majorly pro-Brit, it would probably **** me off hearing about it between bouts of Coronation Street and Eastenders. I actually don't have much of an opinion on the wearing or non-wearing of a poppy despite what the last few pages would suggest. And im all for personal choice in most circumstances. I just think that McCleans actions are a bit immature and self indulgent. He knows from his twitter abuse that this is easy pickings for those that want it to be and he just goes ahead and gives them what they want. We should be talking about his performances, not this sh!te.

I still don't understand what bennocelt was getting at.

Just that you seem to be dishing people who actually live and have friends and family in Britain from your lofty position in Canada........

[DannyInvincible]

Are we starting all over again Danny?

I'm not in the public eye, haven't gone against the rest of my team and haven't been involved in highly publicized, politically sensitive, Internet arguments.

Hypothetically-speaking, if you were in the public eye and the trend was to wear a poppy if you so wished, would you wear one, and what would be the reasoning behind your decision? Would it be a statement either way? (I won't suggest you might be involved in highly-publicised, politically-sensitive internet argument! )

[DannyInvincible]

It hasn't.

Millions of people, throughout the World, with no connection to "loyalism" and "British nationalist institutions" (whatever they are?) wear a Poppy with pride.

That's like me saying the noble National Flag of the Republic Of Ireland has been hijacked by Republican terrorists and criminal gangs, such as those who slaughtered Mr Black only a couple of weeks ago.

There are those north of the border who attach such meaning to the flag of Ireland and who would have trouble "respecting" it for vaguely similar reasons to why James McClean might have had trouble wearing a poppy. As I mentioned already, Sammy Morrow, a Protestant from Limavady, was the only player between the two sides - Derry and Bohs - who opted not to face the Irish tricolour whilst 'Amhrán na bhFiann' was being played before the 2008 FAI Cup final. Given his communal background, his stance may well have related to the (unnofficial) association of the tricolour with (militant) republicanism. Of course, he stood out like a sore thumb and it all looked a little awkward. Indeed, I recall some idiots getting all het up about it at the time, both in the stands and online after the game, but that was Morrow's own personal business; something that was entirely up to him and of none of their concern. Obviously, the tricolour possesses different connotations for Sammy Morrow to the meaning it holds for myself and many others who identify it as our national flag, but I wouldn't call him ignorant or an idiot because he might perceive it differently. It's unfortunate he sees it in a way it was unintended to be seen, but that's reality.

[youngirish]

The British were beaten before also, when they were ruling the world.

This is the British armies fourth war in Afghanistan in 170 years. None of the others achieved anything of lasting significance but considerable loss of life on both sides and the eventual withdrawal and/or defeat of the British. Why anyone thought it would be any different this time is beyond me. Talk about history repeating.

[Not Brazil]

It is interesting you mention the ANZACs. At no point in any ceremony over here are the sacrifices of anyone outside of Oz and NZ mentioned or acknowledged. They really don't care about the 'Old Country' or any contribution made by anyone else.

Maybe when your next in London you should visit The Cenotaph in Whitehall.

[paul_oshea]

I am no dinosaur, my friend. That I respect the sacrifices and bravery of our Armed Forces, and uphold your right (and that of anyone else, including young McClean) who chooses to think differently on that issue, does not me a dinasaur make.

If you think, based on your "average English person" (whatever that means?) survey, that the United Kingdom will ever forget The Fallen, you are sadly deluded.

In villages, towns and Cities throughout the South East Of England (and elsewhere in the United Kingdom and further afield) , people will be wearing Poppies in proud Remembrance of The Fallen until well after you and me are dust.

NB, just a little test, by an individual, and not to be used as a proper survey(less than ~1000 ) but I've counted on the tube to work every morning how many of those around me are wearing poppies. Its notable by the serious lack of poppy wearing commuters. I would say about 1/5th for the last 10 days or so. There are poppy sellers at many tube stations, so plenty of opportunity, yet so few wear it ( even at work so few people wear them, and on the way to work - from tube to office- I don't see very many either).The demographic of the people is impossible to define, because it is so diverse, the only thing we have in common is we work in Canary Wharf. This is the changing face of Britain. You will have your strongholds in untouched country areas and pockets in the Home Counties.

I'm sure if you were working in MOD or GCHQ then you would see a huge reversal, but sadly these are the only places where its still observed with the patriotism that you believe in.

[youngirish]

NB, just a little test, by an individual, and not to be used as a proper survey(less than ~1000 ) but I've counted on the tube to work every morning how many of those around me are wearing poppies. Its notable by the serious lack of poppy wearing commuters. I would say about 1/5th for the last 10 days or so. There are poppy sellers at many tube stations, so plenty of opportunity, yet so few wear it ( even at work so few people wear them, and on the way to work - from tube to office- I don't see very many either).The demographic of the people is impossible to define, because it is so diverse, the only thing we have in common is we work in Canary Wharf. This is the changing face of Britain. You will have your strongholds in untouched country areas and pockets in the Home Counties.

I'm sure if you were working in MOD or GCHQ then you would see a huge reversal, but sadly these are the only places where its still observed with the patriotism that you believe in.

Walking around Brighton for the past week or so I have yet to notice anyone wearing one.

[paul_oshea]

For my part I have no interest in Brit bashing. My son is English and most of my friends are English. My objections are noted in quite a fair bit of detail above and centre around the whole ridiculousness of placing people who essentially are trained to kill other people on some sort of pedestal in 21st century society. Its comical to some degree. The fact you don't get the joke makes it even more so.

Your son is English....no way YI!!!