QuoteYa, I purposely chose it given the context of the last few pages of James' thread.
I am probably a little bit less entrenched than the men the poppy is for though Paul, to be fair. Lovely choice of word though. Super.Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Ya, I purposely chose it given the context of the last few pages of James' thread.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
What the hell has that got to do with anything I posted? Or the bit that you quoted me? Poor form, very poor.Says the guy in far away Saskatchewan, lol
Maybe this is why I'm struggling with the opinions of a lot of posters on this issue. The poppy is worn here in Canada too and it is used to commemorate all fallen soldiers from around the world, not exclusively Canadian and certainly not British though a lot of the official ceremonies involve Canadian veterans as would be expected. Isn't this the same in England? Either way, I just think there's other things to get worked up over. The poppy symbolism seems kind of harmless to me.
Do you wear one Skstu? I think i see where benno is coming from but it wasn't very clear.
Without sounding rude here, I dont think you fully understand, and are seeing it purely from inside the box - the Canadian one in this case.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
No, I don't wear one.
What don't I understand? That its majorly pro-Brit symbolism? If that's the case then just say it. I know that if it was majorly pro-Brit, it would probably **** me off hearing about it between bouts of Coronation Street and Eastenders. I actually don't have much of an opinion on the wearing or non-wearing of a poppy despite what the last few pages would suggest. And im all for personal choice in most circumstances. I just think that McCleans actions are a bit immature and self indulgent. He knows from his twitter abuse that this is easy pickings for those that want it to be and he just goes ahead and gives them what they want. We should be talking about his performances, not this sh!te.
I still don't understand what bennocelt was getting at.
Probably as irrelevent to the general discussion as your remark about the posting habits of others, eh?
The Poppy Appeal is run by the Royal British Legion in the UK, a charity organisation affiliated to the British Armed Forces. I'm not certain if the link is formal or official, but there is an undoubted and undeniable association between the symbol and the British Army that, for many, will amount to a stigma due to their own circumstances.
Well I always was told that in the UK it was for serving British soldiers and veterans of all its wars not exclusively the world wars and that it specifically does not commemorate all combatants and innocents who have died in war I believe its only the white poppy that does that. I can see why it is confusing that people would get so worked up over this Its different if your a Nationalist living in the North I suppose and I feel the poppy is used by some sections here as more of a symbol of loyalism rather than a pure act of remembrance. For example in recent months at an supermarket in North Belfast a former UVF member who worked there committed suicide and the local community who would be overwhelmingly loyalist saw fit to commemorate the man by tying numerous NI flags,union jacks and UVF flags and 'lest we forget' poppy scarves on the fence and the local UVF unit placed a poppy wreath in his honour at the front of the store given the backdrop of the poppy and how it is used by some here I don't find it surprising that some would be opposed to wearing it although McClean has acted somewhat naively here I feel as he is only going to bring himself more hassle because of it and he should be concentrating on his football but at the same time whats the point of saying people have freedom of choice if they are not allowed to use it. It seems to be a sign of insecurity and uncertainty over national identity that this has become such a prominent issue and seemingly portrayed as something central to Englishness/Britishness but I suppose this is not surprising given the deepening racial divides that have been evident in England.
Just like James McClean then, except he's being an outspoken idiot when he chooses not to wear one whilst you're not making any statement at all presumably?
Are we starting all over again Danny?
I'm not in the public eye, haven't gone against the rest of my team and haven't been involved in highly publicized, politically sensitive, Internet arguments.
Thank you and SolitudeRed for the education. It's a symbol that has been hijacked by loyalism and British nationalist institutions. Didn't know that. Would have saved a lot of hassle for someone to just have explained it early on without me having to ask the question.
Last edited by SkStu; 12/11/2012 at 4:27 PM.
Context, DI. Context.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
As an Irishman living in England I find this British mentality regarding their military to be still firmly rooted in Victorian times when their armed forces were the prime means of achieving their expansionist goals. This attitude that they fought to preserve our freedom and thus deserve our deep appreciation and gratitude is all well and good but it belies the fact that they have far more often than not been used throughout the world as an instrument of oppression and imperialistic expansionism than to protect any particular nation's freedom. As an Irish person they certainly have never fought for my freedom but have more often than not been used to oppress the likes of me. I've met many young lads who have served for the British armed forces and to me they often appear to be fairly simple and often misguided young men, maybe worthy of pity but not of any great respect - blowing up poverty stricken tribal people from 3 miles up in the air is certainly something that deserves none of my respect. Let's put it like this - none of them are going to solve the nuclear fusion input to output ratio energy problem anytime soon.
The exception to the rule is World War 2 where they did fight against an oppressive and dangerous regime. However so did Stalin and his politburo. World War 1 was simply the result of an unchecked military build up with Germany. There was no right or wrong and Britain certainly were not fighting for anybody's freedom (Belgium included) they were fighting to check Germany's growth which posed a danger to their great Empire under which they themselves were oppressing hundreds of millions of Indians, Australian Aborigines, Zulus, Bantus, Irish, Chinese - the list is endless. Their other wars over the past century or so - Iraq, Afghanistan, Suez, the Boer War, the Anglo Zulu wars, the Anglo Irish war have been wars of oppression and expansion and not wars to extend people's freedoms by any historical analysis.
To sum up it's the 21st century isn't it about time Britain ditched this Victorian Imperialistic tripe praising their great armed forces and replace it with something more deserving - a remembrance day for people who went out to Africa to dig wells for starving children for example. Much more worthy of my respect than some naive teenager with an SA-80 in one hand and a hard on in the other.
If James McClean doesn't want to wear a poppy then fair play to him. He has that right to do so today whereas the British military may well have been used to whip him into submission if he refused to do so 100 years ago. That's progress.
Last edited by youngirish; 12/11/2012 at 5:40 PM.
Good post youngirish, but that said, although the British Army has generally been used to further the agenda of those in power in Britain, be that securing resources, making money, or getting reelected, the people who join often do out of a sense of loyalty and duty. If someone sincerely believes that the British army is needed in Afghanistan, that they can make a real difference, that they can help to bring much-needed stability and peace to the region, and they get blown up by an IED, I still respect them for that.
Except they can't and won't win any campaign in Afghanistan. Both the Russians and US left without winning. The British won't be any different.
As YI says it would be much better if they and all the countries in WW1 and 2 all concentrated on humanitarian efforts rather than pointless poppies.
Fair point Peader but I'd imagine most of the rank and file of the SS truly believed they were protecting and indeed promoting the well being of Germany during World War 2. Few would have seen themselves as the fanatical and aggressive threat they undoubtedly were. If young lads are stupid enough to believe they are protecting one of the most powerful countries in the world from danger by fighting Pashtun tribesmen in the remote hills of Afghanistan whos way of life has changed little in hundreds of years then I'm not sure they deserve much respect. Pity perhaps but not respect and far less pity than the innocents caught up in the fighting. This poppy thing will be ditched by the British in time anyway. Most young people here think of it in similar means as I do a leftover of a bygone age best consigned to the past - it's the crusty nosed toffs in the establishment that keep these ideas alive but fortunately most of these will be dead in the next few decades anyway.
But either he had the choice, same as yourself, or he didn't.
Others have supplied the context - he was in a no win situation. He chose principles - no matter how misguided some may view them - over expedience.
The British were beaten before also, when they were ruling the world.
Nah, some people think he's too dumb to have principles
Otherwise, if James is supposed to be a likeness to his caricature, then where does that leave his detractors, if it does turn out to be that a brainless twerp like James has principles, in a situation where his detractors wouldn't have 1% of the courage it would take to stand up for that principal.
One can go around in circles, meandering about this and that, but essentially one has to appreciate that it was a principal for him and it took guts. Unless you have stood up for something, alone, against the grain, in a cesspit of opposition, then I'd suggest the opinion of the detractor is less than worthless.
[QUOTE=SkStu;1642840]A
It's a symbol that has been hijacked by loyalism and British nationalist institutions. Didn't know that.QUOTE]
It hasn't.
Millions of people, throughout the World, with no connection to "loyalism" and "British nationalist institutions" (whatever they are?) wear a Poppy with pride.
That's like me saying the noble National Flag of the Republic Of Ireland has been hijacked by Republican terrorists and criminal gangs, such as those who slaughtered Mr Black only a couple of weeks ago.
The Poppy is there as a symbol of Remembrance for those that choose to donate to the Poppy Appeals - nobody should be forced to wear one. Please don't attempt to besmirch those of us who choose to wear one on account of "loyalism" "hijacking" it. I am Loyal to my Queen and Nation - that does not make me an intolerant bigot.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I thought and prayed yesterday for the family and friends of Channing Day, a brave young women from Comber, Co Down who was laid to rest last week having paid the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, unselfishly doing a job she loved. I have nothing but the utmost respect for her. Whether I believe she should have had to serve in Afghanistan is irrelevant. I don't need to support the War, to respect and remember those that give their lives through service in my Nation's Armed Forces.
I also respect your right to think differently.
I do believe that your fanciful notion that Citizens of the United Kingdom will ever forget the sacrifices of our Fallen is mere wishful thinking. They will never be forgotten. Not ever.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
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