Group C Euro 2012 General Discussion

[boysingreen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN42f6lxxv0

Gianfranco Zolla and Ruud Gullit making predictions in that link. They talk about our group at the 8:25 mark. It's not exactly the type of analysis that will knock your socks off. Both pick Spain and Italy to come out of it, with the only notion that any other teams are actually in the group coming when Zolla says (something to the effect of) Croatia could make things tricky for Italy.

There you have it, folks. We don't even register on the radar of discussion in a 4-team group!!!

This familiar underdog feeling is making this tournament real to me lol Let's shock the world!! C'mon Ireland!!!

[Stuttgart88]

Is there a thread for general discussion of the tournament?

I was really impressed by France last night, except for a defensive brain fart in the 8th minute that should have gifted Estonia a goal.

After that they played with cohesion, width, pace, invention and a very quick tempo. I always think Mexes is an accident waiting to happen but I fancy France this time around.

Any team that beats Estonia 4-0 has got to be good . Seriously though, that was a very different 4-0 than ours.

[passinginterest]

I was really impressed by France last night

I saw a good bit of the first half and they definitely seem to have found some of the old "va va voom" again. The goals from Benzema and Ribery were fantastic.

It'll make beating them in the quarter final all the more satisfying.

[thischarmingman]

Possibly covered elsewhere, but BBC Radio 5 Live covered Ireland's tournament history yesterday:

As the Republic of Ireland prepare for their first major tournament in 10 years, Mark Chapman and former Irish internationals John Aldridge, Pat Bonner, and David O'Leary reminisce about their most successful period under Jack Charlton. They also look ahead to Ireland's chances at Euro 2012.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/5lfd

[legendz]

Our only major tournament knock-out win came in that fabulous shoot-out win over Romania. With the group we've been landed in, it's unimaginable that we can improve on that record. It would be unbelievable though. The dream it to get out of the group and go one stage further as well. It's hope, after last Monday night, it's hard to know what to expect, as much as been aware nothing should be read into that friendly.

[Crosby87]

So McGeady says he is tired and might not be ready by sunday?

[seanfhear]

So McGeady says he is tired and might not be ready by sunday?

Aiden may have talked himself into getting a rest from Trap. In some ways I could see Trap putting McClean on from the start. McClean has more energy and physical presence than Aiden. He is better suited to do the defensive work than Aiden. Aiden would be more effective when the opposition has tired. Aiden did well when he came on as a substitute in the match where James made his full debut.

[Noelys Guitar]

If you look back at any of the Irish teams from 88/90/94/02 they all had deficiencies. McGrath was carrying a bad injury against England 88 and it showed. Stapleton was past it but put in a good shift. Aldridge like Stapo was unable to score at that time. McCarthy and Moran no better than Dunne and St Ledger. The five front players we have now are better overall than any combo of front players we had at any of the Euro's/WC's. This is not to deride any of the previous teams that qualified just to show that we never had a team of star players. It would be great to have a McGrath or Roy Keane at their peak going into Sundays game but lets not forget about our attacking options which to me are as good as we have ever had.

[paul_oshea]

I should have known well no one would get that joke about stutts and the intelligent advertising.

Well said NOely, I dont buy this of the team of 88 or 90 being superstars, the English teams had been out of Europe for a good while and it showed around that time as they were not nearly as strong as their italian counterparts, the english is now probably the strongest league(or pretty much on a par with Spain) at the top, but we still have some great players, and bar a poor centre midfield and left back we have a good core nucleus. Our front 1/3 are as good if not better than anything we have had before, and greater strength in depth. We just need to make sure that we don't get caught out in the full back positions.

[seanfhear]

If you look back at any of the Irish teams from 88/90/94/02 they all had deficiencies. McGrath was carrying a bad injury against England 88 and it showed. Stapleton was past it but put in a good shift. Aldridge like Stapo was unable to score at that time. McCarthy and Moran no better than Dunne and St Ledger. The five front players we have now are better overall than any combo of front players we had at any of the Euro's/WC's. This is not to deride any of the previous teams that qualified just to show that we never had a team of star players. It would be great to have a McGrath or Roy Keane at their peak going into Sundays game but lets not forget about our attacking options which to me are as good as we have ever had.

We have never had four forwards as good as Keane, Doyle, Walters and Long at the same time before.

The defence and goalkeeping situation is good particularly if everyone is fully fit.

The midfield is a little worrying particularly as under Traps system the midfielders are expected to do so much, especially defensively. And realistically there is only one replacement of the quality that would be needed i.e. Darron Gibson. McCarthy is a big loss.

Under Traps system you could really do with at least 4 midfielders in the squad that can slot in. With the midfielders doing so much work there is a good chance that midfielders will have to be substituted during games.

How will we cope if one or two midfielders pick up injuries. I hope Trap has contingency plans if this were to occur.

[paul_oshea]

He does, remember, he called up paul green.

[Stuttgart88]

Remember that Walters can play improvised wide right. As he says himself, that's where he spent most of this season at Stoke.

I personally believe that Whelan, Andrews and Gibson can make a well-balanced and effective midfield 3 but I don't think we'll see that.

I think the latest from Trap is that Monday showed up flaws that he will rectify not so much by changing the shape but rather by getting the forwards to work harder and McGeady coming infield. Some of the papers proposed that this may benefit Walters over Doyle and I agree.

I liked Trap's Pontius Pilate remark.

[paul_oshea]

Please share i didn't hear the potius pilate, you cant leave us hanging like that knowing we didn't hear it

[seanfhear]

He does, remember, he called up paul green.

I think Paul Green could do a job if you were trying to hold on to a lead with say twenty minutes to go. I think that he can play as an emergency left back if needed (emergency being the important word here.

To be honest I don't think he is capable of doing Whelans or Andrews job for 90 minutes. Sometimes you just cant ask a player to do something he is not capable of.

[Stuttgart88]

Please share i didn't hear the potius pilate, you cant leave us hanging like that knowing we didn't hear it

“I watched many games of the Irish team before I came here and when I got here I talked to one of my players about something I had seen,” he said by way of providing historical context for the current situation.

“You got ball and attacked but then you lost it and your opponent went, crossed the ball and they scored. Where were you? You stayed up front without the ball and the others scored a goal like you were like Pontius Pilate. If that player had gone back and hadn’t allowed him to make the cross then it wouldn’t have been a goal.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...317367194.html

Basically, forwards also have to take responsibilty once possession is lost. Pontius Pilate absolved himself of responsibility. I'm glad Trap feels the issue at hand is as important!

[Stuttgart88]

Wow, it's so close now even Sunday's Poznan weather forecast is up on BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/3088171

Showers at lunchtime, 19 degrees at 8pm dropping to 16 by 11pm. That's OK.

In the last few days this has suddenly gone from being some hypothetical event to the real thing.

[legendz]

Will have a later start to work on Monday. Off then for the time of the next two games, hopefully gonna be briliiant!

[SkStu]

It'll make beating them in the quarter final all the more satisfying.

not sure why you think they'll finish second if they're all that?

[shakermaker1982]

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06/...eview-ireland/

It is a decade since Ireland last qualified for a major international tournament, and the three biggest stars from the 2002 World Cup will represent Ireland again here – Shay Given in goal, Damien Duff on the wing and Robbie Keane upfront.

They’re probably still the three biggest stars, which rather sums up Ireland’s situation – they don’t have any world class footballers, and that has been foremost in Giovanni Trapattoni’s mind since he took charge of Ireland.

Trapattoni has focused upon creating a solid, reliable unit. Everything he says is about the system, about discipline. “I have given them balance, an equilibrium, and I have underlined that all 11 players attack and defend, without necessarily expecting to play well,” he once said. His quotes are celebrated, his playing style is not. Ireland are ultra-defensive. “In the past [the Irish team] had ships with sails and they had to go wherever it was the wind took them,” Trapattoni says. ”Now, you can set a course and that is what I have done with this team. But if you depart from the course, then you end up on the rocks.”

Conservative selection

Because of his focus upon shape and discipline, Trapattoni has been remarkably consistent with his team and squad selection. This has been controversial in Ireland – talented players like Wes Hoolahan and Seamus Coleman have been ignored, and it seemed as if exciting winger James McClean was also set to be omitted, although he’s made the squad despite little international experience. However, the point remains – Trapattoni wants tried, tested and most importantly trusted players, and this team is overwhelmingly about systems rather than individuals. His template is Greece 2004.

Trapattoni was a man of many formations as (a rather unsuccessful) coach of Italy, but with Ireland he doesn’t stray from a traditional 4-4-2, with two defensive-minded midfielders, two wingers breaking down the flanks, one forward dropping off and a big target man upfront. Ireland don’t hoof the ball towards the number nine as quickly as possible, but they’re hardly playing out of their comfort zone: they’ll spend long periods without the ball, then be direct when they win possession.

Defence

At the back, Ireland’s key man is Richard Dunne, a defender who has a remarkably basic skillset for a Premier League and international player, yet he is in his element in this system, where his job is to sit on the edge of the box, make headed clearances and get last-ditch blocks in. The fact that Ireland’s midfield stays so deep means he shouldn’t have to move forward and follow forwards out, as he is slow on the turn. His partner is Sean St Ledger – a fairly ordinary centre-back, yet a consistent performer at international level.

At full-back Trapattoni’s first-choices are Stephen Ward and John O’Shea. They full-backs are defensive-minded, and with Ireland attacking directly there are few opportunities to overlap – they generally don’t venture into the final third.

Midfield

Central midfield is the area that has prompted the most debate. Trapattoni’s favoured men throughout qualification were Keith Andrews and Glenn Whelan – again, unspectacular footballers but capable of doing the scrappy things in front of the defence, as well as playing simple square balls out to the flanks. Those two seemed untouchable in Trapattoni’s mind, but recently the Italian has been spending a lot of one-on-one time with Darron Gibson in training, and has declared that he will be an ‘important player’ for Ireland, suggesting there could be a last-minute change in the centre of the pitch. Gibson can spread play with more ambitious passes than either Whelan or Andrews, so he is a more proactive option, but Gibson’s good performance in the friendly against Bosnia, Trapattoni returned to Whelan-Andrews for the final pre-tournament friendly against Hungary.

However, having previously looked the most inflexible of the 16 coaches in terms of formation, Trapattoni hinted this week that he’d consider playing a 4-5-1. “If we have another situation like this [an inability to retain possession in the friendly against Hungary], we need another approach,” he said. “When we have another player in midfield, we can make it more difficult.” That was a shock admission, and for Ireland to change system now would surely be a mistake. They’re unlikely to outpass the opposition – and the 3-2 defeat to Russia showed how clearly a two-man midfield can be overcome by a three-man midfield, but that was when Ireland conceded an early goal and were forced to chase the game for a long period. Prevent an early concession, and Ireland should be OK, although Keane offers the flexibility to help out in midfield.

On the flanks there’s another debate. Two clear first-choices throughout the qualification campaign (Duff and Aiden McGeady) and then a young challenger in McClean, who also performed well against Bosnia – though this seemed to bring the best out of McGeady when he came on as a substitute. Again, Trapattoni has the ability to switch these players. They are all traditional wingers – they look to take on full-backs before crossing to the two forwards.

Forwards

Robbie Keane is the number ten, asked to play, in Trapattoni’s words, “the Francesco Totti role” – although he also makes the occasional run in behind the defence.

Upfront, Trapattoni has options. Kevin Doyle is the first choice but had a poor season for Wolves, and two West Brom forwards, Simon Cox and Shane Long are able deputies. Jon Walters is another option, and is adaptable and has played a deeper role for Stoke this year. Though all are slightly different players, Trapattoni’s decision will probably be about form, fitness and confidence levels rather than tactical reasons.

That said, the strikers play a key part in the defensive phase of play. “Did you ever wonder why certain strikers no longer form part of the squad set-up? Because they would lose the ball and then stand around and watch. But you’ve got to chase back,” Trapattoni says. “Sometimes, your best defenders are your forwards,” he reiterated this week. “If a striker lets his defender go down the pitch and cross for a goal, he has not helped the team. He is like Pontius Pilate. Instead, I want them to run back with the defender and stop him crossing for the goal.”

System over individuals

It’s not harsh to say that Ireland are probably the most technically-limited side in the competition, but Trapattoni is aware of their limitations and has constructed a solid unit that should thrive as the underdog. More importantly, the players sitck to the plan and have a great team spirit (which seems a patronising thing to say, but after England’s complains of boredom at the World Cup, can be an important factor).

Ireland are nicely prepared for this tournament. Each of the other 15 sides would play the same way against Spain, but while for some that would mean a huge departure from their natural gameplan, Ireland are used to being defensive, organised and reactive.

This is very much a game-by-game campaign, and Trapattoni is looking at the weaknesses of his opponents rather than his own side’s strengths. “I spend all my time watching DVDs of Spain, Croatia and Italy, looking at the tactical approach and what I can do. I have seen all of the games – home and away – of the teams we will play. Every little detail – free-kicks, corner kicks, throw-ins, how they start the game – is important for us and will be important in the games in June,” he says.

Ireland’s most winnable game is the opening fixture against Croatia. From those DVDs, Trapattoni will have seen how poor Croatia were when defending set-pieces in the 2-0 qualification defeat to Greece, and this should play into Ireland’s hands beautifully. A 0-0 will be the target against Spain, and then the final game against Italy will be crucial. If Ireland have pinched four points from the first two games – the dream scenario – another goalless draw should be enough.

Conclusion

This is a very reactive side, but if there’s one thing Ireland have been good at in past international tournaments, it’s squeezing through the group despite scoring few goals. They stand a good chance of frustrating superior opposition.

Quick guide:

Coach – Giovanni Trapattoni

Formation – 4-4-1-1 / 4-4-2

Key players – the wingers, who must turn defence into attack swiftly

Strength – excellent shape without the ball

Weakness – ball retention and creativity

Key tactical question – does Trapattoni abandon the shape that has taken him this far?

Key coach quote – “I have underlined that all 11 players attack and defend, without necessarily expecting to play well.”

Betfair odds – 110.0 (109/1)

Recommended bet – Ireland to finish 2nd behind Spain at 9.6

[Stuttgart88]

Don't agree with the Dunne appraisal at all. He's actually quite good on the ball.