Is that Schrodingers cat? So we're both out of Euro 2012 finals and in the finals at the same time.Originally Posted by Sullivinho
Given didn't have a shot worth talking about to save the whole game yet Ronnie Whelan talked about us being "overrun" in the second half. When we went three up he retracted this to "slightly under pressure" earlier in the half. FFS. Thank heavens for Brady and his loyalty to Trap and the team for some balance in RTE. End of usual rant.
Like everyone else I get annoyed when the ball is just pumped up aimlessly but in this campaign we have seen Robbie pouncing on two misplaced passes between defenders resulting in a goal and a sending off. If in doubt. I think lump it is the best policy. Our first goal came from such a long ball. However, whether we can afford to give the ball away so often against the better teams, I am not so sure although we did come away with draws in France and Italy. England tried it against Spain and won with 30% possession. Who knows.
It looks like we're getting to a Final, only the second Euro in my lifetime, and it will be tough since unlike the World Cup there won't be any 3nd rate teams there. However, after Tuesday it should be a time to rejoice, assuming we don't get any sending offs.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
Is that Schrodingers cat? So we're both out of Euro 2012 finals and in the finals at the same time.
I gotta agree with Trap's assessment in some of the papers this weekend that we play the way we do because of the players we have. Also, some players are left out because the way they play for their clubs isn't how he wants us to play, even if they are catching the eye at club level.
We're frustrating to watch because we seem happy to play without the ball a lot, but it has to be acknowledged that bar a couple of off-days, we don't concede many chances and even when we do we have a great keeper and good centre-backs.
We've beaten Armenia twice, Macedonia twice, and now Estonia. OK, it's not going to cause fear in any of the really big teams, but Kerr & Staunton wouldn't have got a 100% record from those teams I reckon.
Also, I think Friday was another argument in favour of my theory that we play well enough when we have to score. I thought we started very well on Friday and although we had allowed Estonia to settle at 0-0, when the goal came we had been the better team. Once ahead the emphasis shifts to making sure we stay ahead, rather than pressing on. Armenia away endorses that - we kept going for the win until we got a late-ish goal. In all other games against the banana skin teams (Armenia are better than that actually) we have scored early.
This guy really is a misery.
By David Kelly
Monday November 14 2011
Ireland are a team moulded into the form of their manager's liking. Any fantasists expecting renewal of personnel and revolution in style can whistle in the wind. What got them here will propel them forwards.
Ireland's zen-like calm as they approached their final frontier seemed a surprise to some observers, but this feeling diminished when reflected through the prism of the serene, ageless Giovanni Trapattoni.
Criticisms of method may linger, repugnance at the increasingly vaudevillian celebrations of the CEO may persist and disquiet at the lack of engagement between the manager and Irish football people may persevere.
It matters little now. The strict adherence to results at all costs has delivered the one outcome that matters -- qualification.
It wasn't all plain sailing and Ireland got as much wrong as they got right throughout the campaign. But they got there in the end. And so we should expect little to change between now and the summer.
Five things Trapattoni
got right
The system
The manager's long-held conviction that, aside from the stalwart senior figures of his side -- the quartet of Shay Given, Richard Dunne, Damien Duff and Robbie Keane -- Ireland possess little substantial quality utterly underpins his devotion to his rigid 'systema'.
While at times during the campaign, he hinted at the potential to tinker with the 4-4-2 formation, particularly when presented with fledgling James McCarthy's emergence, he has resisted.
Consistency in approach has been the watchword under Trapattoni, and that has ultimately reaped its reward in terms of results as Ireland now stand on the verge of qualification.
Respect
When Trapattoni received what seemed to be the most significant of snubs ahead of last May's Four Nations tournament after a slew of withdrawals, the austere Italian risked his reputation to augment his strength of management.
He outlined his anger at the manner in which players such as Marc Wilson, Anthony Stokes, McCarthy and Jonathan Walters pulled out of the squad at the time without making decent efforts to contact either him or the FAI.
A line in the sand had been drawn and Trapattoni's forceful point had been made -- respect for the manager was non-negotiable and his authority was significantly enhanced.
Loyalty
Trapattoni has ensured that he has commanded the undying loyalty of his squad -- whether it is underlying his opposition to impromptu drinking sessions or insisting that his football philosophy is strictly obeyed.
The senior cabal of his experienced players -- media-shy Duff notwithstanding -- have been vociferous in their defence of both the manager's tactics and, more significantly, Trapattoni's worthiness to receive a new contract.
That loyalty has been reciprocated by some outstanding individual displays, with Keane nabbing vital goals, and the performances of Given and Dunne in Moscow will remain stand-out moments.
squad depth
Despite his reluctance to cast his net beyond his established squad players, Trapattoni has gradually improved the strength in depth of his collective throughout the qualification period.
At left-back, Stephen Ward has, despite a worrying uncertainty at times, stepped up to wrest the berth from the previously impregnable hold of Kevin Kilbane.
Up front, the belated emergence of Walters and Simon Cox have made Ireland's striking options better than at any time in recent history.
Keiren Westwood, aided by some much-needed Premier League experience, has provided secure back-up to Shay Given, as he demonstrated in the qualifier at home to Macedonia.
defensive organisation
While it would have been possible for most managers of moderate ability to improve upon the shambolic Steve Staunton era, Trapattoni has built from the back.
He has repeatedly outlined that while he nominally sends every team out to win, the fundamental requirement not to concede underlines his managerial philosophy, distrustful as he is of the players in front of the defence.
The epitome of this defensive solidity emerged when Ireland maintained a seventh successive clean sheet on a memorable night in Moscow; in total, they blanked the opposition in half their qualifying games.
Five things Trapattoni
got wrong
inflexible approach
Too often during the campaign, Ireland's rigid approach ceded the momentum to the opposition, predominantly at home, and Trapattoni's teams have now become more adept at playing away from their fortress.
Despite offering the slightest chink of light, the manager has stubbornly refused to alter his tactical approach and will remain utterly justified in his own mind as a result of qualification.
Whether Ireland could have been able to challenge Russia's authority with a more flexible approach is hypothetical at this stage. But it certainly never looked as if he was willing to try something different.
russian roulette
Easily the lowest point of Ireland's campaign was the stunning home defeat to Russia, albeit masked by a typically character-driven comeback to limit the bleeding in Lansdowne Road.
Trapattoni's bizarre assertion that he had prior knowledge of Russia's tactical approach was matched by his equally baffling inability to counter it in any fashion.
The defeat meant that Ireland could not afford any more slip-ups in their quest for a play-off spot, and only Slovakia's late implosion in the qualifying campaign and some Moscow heroics saved the manager's blushes.
striking condemnation
Trapattoni's indifference to the whims of his players has proven to be a strength at times, but there were occasions when his treatment of his stalwarts was markedly awry.
Kevin Doyle was treated abysmally by the manager during this campaign as the Italian responded less than sympathetically to his injury travails, and Shane Long was also subject to the manager's scepticism after missing the home tie against Slovakia.
Neither player's character can be called into question and Trapattoni should immediately take steps to smooth out any creases in their relationships.
couch potato
Trapattoni has argued that he is better served watching an extensive array of DVDs in the comfort of his Milan home rather than discommoding himself every weekend by travelling to England.
However, his assimilation of new players could have been accelerated had he paid more attention to events in England; however much he stresses that every Irish player is on his radar, the argument has been diluted by his reluctance to appear at English football grounds.
Treatment of midfielders
Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews came under sustained criticism from pundits and supporters throughout the campaign but they were victims of their manager's straitjacketed approach.
Contrary to their club roles, neither player is encouraged to move beyond the ball -- marking Andrews' opening goal last Friday night as a startling oddity -- and they have constantly been exposed by opposing midfield trios.
With the numbers against them, they have appeared hopelessly limited but, as Whelan once acutely observed, if he tried to play differently he would be dropped for an alternative, cowed colleague.
Five things Trapattoni
must do
see more matches
Trapattoni has nearly six months' worth of opportunity to finalise his 23-man squad for the World Cup and, even if 21 probably pick themselves, the prospect of last-minute injuries mean he must have all options covered.
Abandoning his reluctance to travel to England on a weekly basis would be a welcome start, particularly as Ireland only have one friendly between now and May in which to view prospective candidates.
build bridges
It would be helpful if Trapattoni's cold relationship with some of the Irish players -- inside and currently outside his squad -- could melt a tad.
For example, it is difficult to square Kevin Kilbane's contribution to the Irish team over the past decade and a half compared to the impersonal manner in which he was treated by the manager upon his initial exclusion from the squad.
True, not all of Ireland's squad arouse much empathy from the normal supporter, but there are enough honest characters in the team who are deserving of a little more respect.
plan b
There is an assumption that Ireland's away approach to matches will inure them to exposure to embarrassment against the world's top sides in Poland and Ukraine next summer.
However, their consistent inability to cope with teams who outnumber them in midfield has already been ruthlessly exploited and that scenario is likely to recur. An alternative style needs to be at least tentatively broached, but will Trapattoni have the time or the will to change?
sort contract
This is more his CEO's area of concern, but Trapattoni has not been shy about making Delaney and the Irish public aware that there are seemingly employers in all four corners of the globe pining for his services.
If he really wants to lead Ireland to the 2014 World Cup in Brazil, then it is time for himself and Delaney to sit down and bang their heads together to end all the disruptive contract talk. The prospect of him walking out between now and June is simply untenable and a new contract must be a priority.
engage with the grassroots
Trapattoni's willingness to distance himself from the English Premier League is matched by a seeming reluctance to engage with the thousands of Irish football volunteers throughout the country.
Whenever the Italian has pitched up among the football community of the country, it has merely dovetailed with match times or squad announcements.
If he really is at the top of Irish football's pyramid, engaging more realistically with the rest of the structure should be part of his mandate.
- David Kelly
"If God had meant football to be played in the air, he'd have put grass in the sky." Brian Clough.
You'll NEVER beat the Irish.......you'll just draw with us instead!!!
Funny, I was completely calm before the game, I knew Ireland definitely wouldn't lose but I didn't expect 4-0! One thing Ireland do well now is to beat lesser teams. The difference between us and Slovakia/Bulgaria is that we didn't lose to Armenia or Montenegro and that's what really qualified us, not the point in Moscow. Estonia were the best draw possible because they got to the play-offs because of the Italy-Serbia game and Northern Ireland throwing a few spanners in the works for Slovenia. If that had been a normal qualifying game Ireland would've won 1-0, just before the 2nd goal it was looking that way with Estonia having a lot of the ball and Ireland soaking up pressure. But because it was a play-off the Irish players were more determined (case in point McGeady) and the Estonians made mistakes getting sent off and pushing too high up the pitch, that's where the extra goals came from.
I think I said before that if(when) Ireland qualify for a tournament Trap could come into his own. The whole thing of keeping a team spirit and a disciplined squad will come into its own when they're cooped up in a hotel for a month, and tactically we have a solid foundation. With the friendlies next year he might start to try new players and come up with a plan designed just for vs the other teams in the group stage. Having a few games where "not losing" isn't everything, but players still turn up wanting to play could be the making of this Ireland team.
if we were then the estonians must have been brought in on the act willingly. the first red was well deserved (should have been a straight red), second red was correct if a little harsh and the penalty was stone wall. all three resulted from the pressure we put on estonia and their inability to cope. fridays win was hard earned and well deserved. nobody handed anything to us
Kelly article:
Nobody is saying Trap is flawless but I don't see how heading out to St Anne's Park on a weekend is part of his job description. His job is to manage the senior international team. The FAI has other resources to connect with the rest of the pyramid.
Both parties are right to wait until the pay off is over to hammer out the new contract. I'm only guessing, but I expect it'll be sorted promptly, amicably and reasonably by both sides.
There seem to be plenty of players saying that Trap deserves all the credit, even Stephen Hunt who could have a justifiable complaint about only ever being a sub.
Kilbane has been called up over the w/e I believe. I hope he gets a ceremonial introduction at some stage.
I hope he only gets on if Trap is still genuinely considering him for his 23. No time for ceremonial stuff now, Charlton had to drop Brady, if Kilbane isn't good enough any more lets move on and give someone else other than Ward a run at left back in the second half tomorrow night. If he's still in his plans, then fair enough, give him a run.
I'm impressed with Hunt's attitude on Friday. While he was waiting to come on as a sub, you couldn't measure his desire to get on the pitch and make an impact. And in the end he won a penalty which you could almost solely put down to his ambition. I think he has his Euro squad place in the bag.
For the peno, Hunt had the ball in his own half, lumped it to Robbie, then sprinted 30 yards to get it back off Robbie. I've a lot of time for Steve.
I am glad to hear that he's been called up, Killer should definitely be at Euro2012, even just as a bench player or as a coach or something similar, he's been a great servant.
Same here, makes the most of his time on the pitch, puts a shift in and never complains.
Yes, but only if we don't watch the games..
I had the very same experience. I think it was the calmest I've ever been before and during a competitive Irish game. I just didn't see where the threat was going to come from, apart from some fella who hits the ball hard and relatively accurate. 4-0 was a surprise all the same though.
I texted a mate before the game saying I was totally relaxed and felt we had a 60% chance of putting the tie to bed that night. I also added that there was 20% chance of a disaster though! I didn't want to say it on here (superstitious) but I have never ever been calmer before a big Ireland game, bar perhaps Amsterdam in 2000 but that was chemically influenced.
I could be miles off base, but the Killer call up. I heard about it too. Gio has invited him to the game on Tuesday.
On Friday, UEFA did a centenary thing in the Ukraine, any chance they are doing the same thing in Dublin Tuesday?
I was trawling through RTE.ie for comment yesterday and there was a section saying "Relive the Live action with RTE's Live Match Tracker". So I did. Before Walters's goal it was full of stuff like "Ireland are overrun now. We need someone to get on the ball or we're in trouble. This is awful"
It was probably fair, but then that's just how it is under Trap. Go a goal up, play behind the ball. Concede territory but not chances.
Team for the 2nd leg is :
Given, St.Ledger, Ward, O'Shea, Dunne, Whelan, Duff, Andrews, Doyle, Keane, Hunt
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
Where'd you get this from?
Edit: Seen it on fbook
is mcgeady just sitting this one out from the start at least?
well i just heard it on 2fm and thats the same team they read out.
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